Paging Bob La Londe...
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Thank you. I had not seen that. I will give it a more through read later. I was aware the .25 Marauder is capable (with a heavier projectile) of up around 100FPE bringing it into promotional round .22LR power ranges. I tuned mine for consistent shooting at a lower power of
46FPE for 26-28 shots (with a bottle conversion) per charge as opposed to the stock 6-10 at 30ish FPE. I even saw a video of a guy taking a deer from a stand with a super tune .25 Marauder some years back. Very short range, but it worked. We are legally allowed to take big game with airguns here in Arizona, but the last time I reviewd the regs there was a .30 cal minimum bore size.I picked the power range I did to give me close to point blank range accuracy from 20 yards to a little over 50 yards for all the vermin and small game I am likely to take with it.
My long range (for me) airgun is a Chinese made BAM B-50 which is a copy of a European made Daystate Huntsman, in .22. Shooting Kentucky windage on a calm cool day its a 135 yard gun. Nowhere near as powerful, and if I recall I was shooting 34 inches of hold over at 135 yards last time I took it to the range, but I was doing it with "tin can" Crosman 14.3 grain hollow points. Not match pellets. Not even premium pellets. I do keep it top off charged with an SCBA bottle when using it the range though. Shots at 1018 to 1053 FPS group under 2 inches at that distance if I do my part. I've never done anything to tune that gun for efficiency or power, but I do have a regulator for it in a bag somewhere. Maybe someday I'll dial it in.
I just read the article. Its a pretty good beginner article on basic tuning.
I do have a Chronograph, and when I was saying number of shots I was referring to full power shots before elevation changes significantly due to falling velocity. I tune to a bell curve. So my first shot is at the bottom of my acceptable velocity range. As pressure drops the valve opens easier and velocity increases to my peak velocity. Then as pressure drops further velocity starts to drop again until it reaches my minimum acceptable velocity velocity. At short range I could just keep shooting for a while.
With a regulated gun often you have a nearly flat velocity curve. Sometimes when pressure drops and the gun comes off the regulator you actually get an increase in velocity for a few shots before it starts to fall off depending on exactly how its tuned. You can usually adjust for more shots or more power in those cases, but at that point you can spend a lot of time chasing numbers. On the other hand sitting in your back yard all afternoon ventilating paper can be a lot of fun.
Thought you'd understand it better than me seeing you've tinkered with one ;)
FX has really been raising the bar in design of late. I'm a month behind in my magazine reading but I see this Panthera in 12 ft/lbs was going to be reviewed. Radical look with the Buddy bottle on the back end. Up to 107 ft/lbs in .25
I've only owned a few springers, but I found them hard to shoot accurately. Yes, I learned the artillery hold and all that. I've got a "magnum" springer from Hatson in .22 and it flat jumps when you shoot it, but the jump is from the piston, not the firing recoil and its weird. The point of impact drifts over time. They also tend to be pretty hard on scopes. There are high dollar high power rifle scopes that will self destruct when mounted on a springer. I have a Benjamin Nitro Piston and it really can't be sighted in at all. I've also got a little Chinese springer of unknown vintage and power that needs new seals. I may fix it up just because it was my Uncle's.
For a simple gun I'm more prone to like a multi pump pneumatic over a springer. I recently resealed my one owner 1981 Crosman Model 1 1st version, and when I was working on it I realized... its tunable. Not for the average shooter, but for somebody who is willing to get into the guts of it. I may well do something with that. I think just a slight bump in hammer spring weight could give it a boost in power since it does not fully dump the reservoir/valve assembly when pumped to the full ten pumps. Its got a lot of plastic bits in the action though so I may choose to do nothing with it.
Might want to search on this, see what's already been done. It didn't interest me at the time... but I've come across "full dump" while doing research on other Crosman guns.
Their recent Model 362 has garnered all sorts of mod info. This was a HUGE thread on modding the 362 from a couple years ago. Tedious to read but a lot of good leads and links were in it...
I have not looked inside a 362, but if it has more zamak and steel instead of plastic it might be a good candidate for improvement. A multi pump pneumatic functions almost identically to a PCP. It just has a very tiny plenum. If it doesn't do a full plenum dump you can often get a smidgeon more power by reducing the strength of the valve spring or increasing the force of the hammer. Generally that's done with a stronger hammer spring or additional preload, but playing with stroke length (of the hammer) or the weight of the hammer can also have an affect. With a Marauder you can adjust the position of the striking face on the front of the hammer, tighten the hammer spring or adjust the air flow without modifying the gun. Those basic adjustments are built in. I've often found more improvement by changing the hammer, hammer spring, opening up the physical valve port and improving the internal flow of the valve. A lot of those things are harder on a pumper, because its designed around a particular fixed set of everything, but its not impossible.
FYI: I am persona nongrata on GTA. I refuse to accept "because I said so" as an answer and I think EZMAN604 (the admin) is a total douche bag. They have a culture of dogma there that not only refuses to allow growth but stifles legal and lawful discussion because of the fears voiced by old company owners who are long since dead and have been legally dis-proven. They often treat the opinions of ancient airgunners as messianic proclamations. Before EZMAN604 took over and turned GTA into his personal fiefdom it was a great forum. "In my opinion" He would give the admin/owner of Hobby Machinist a run for gold at the Olympic douchery games. Yeah, the same guy who once made public posts using my name on his forum.
There seems to be a lot of that behavior with stuff like this. Elon is putting on a good show playing the douche too...
I'm not signed up there, just came across that thread while doing a general web search. At least I can read most stuff as an anonymous user ;-)
There's a guy named Jim Tyler that writes a tech article for Airgun World most months. He takes a more scientific approach testing mods to springers. A larger port is not necessarily better. Nor are stronger springs. Really complicated stuff in a springer...
In hindsight... I wish I'd skipped getting the Hatsan 155 and coughed up more money for a Weihrauch HW97 or HW98 in .25. From what I've experienced and read, a Hatsan is like a kit, thrown together really rough. If you want to take the time to tear it all down, replace seals, poor hardware, remove burrs and rough edges... you can make a pretty decent gun with one :)
Same thing with the Crosman 362. Per that thread... they're putting Benjamin Discovery (disco) .177 barrels on them along with the steel action block that has scope rails on it. If they'd make a 361 (.177) I'd be a lot more apt to get buy one...
I'm not all that into springers. I own a few, but... I've had all but one of my PCPs apart and have a bit of an understanding of how they work.
The easiest way to get more power out of a springer is dieseling. That being said I can't imagine a compression detonation is good for the gun. From what I have read its mostly about piston speed for permanent improvements. Leaks can be an issue, but everything happens so fast it would have to be a massive leak.
For me if I need to kill something quietly I just pick up the .25 Marauder and take the shot.
The one I have not taken apart is a .177 Sentry. Not all that accurate. Plenty powerful for a .177. Supposed to be externally toolless adjustable, but I was not able to really figure out how that it really has as much affect as it claims. I might spend a day or two on it someday, but the .177 Marauder is a better plinker tuned to about 20FPE for 120-140 full power shots internally regulated. It has an extension, but I bet if I removed the extension it would still drop about 80 shots at full tuned power. I could bump it up a little. This is one that velocity climbs when it comes off the regulator. I keep it where it is so it has similar ballistics to the .25 at 900-920 FPS roughly with 10.5 grain round nose.
As to charging. Probably the easiest might be to drop a couple bills on a Nitrogen tank. SCBA bottles seem like a good idea, but after so many years they are not legal to transport. End of life. Nobody will recertify for longer life except for fire departments. I do have a couple bottles out of cert and a couple compressors. Some guys take their bottles to dive shops to be filled. Paint ball shops will also fill sometimes, but often they will only fill small bottles. I have heard of guys getting local fire departments to fill SCBA bottles for them, but I asked a friend who was (at that time) a local fire captain, and he said he couldn't because it counted against the filter life on his compressors. I think if I was starting on PCP today I would go with the Nitrogen bottle and get a boost pump to keep using it for a while after it dropped below 3000 PSI. Nitrogen is cheap. The gas provider takes care of hydro certifications even on my owner bottles.
I did hand pump for my first two PCP guns though. Its a good workout. Not as bad as you might think if your gun is dialed in. Fill it up and then go shoot/hunt for a while. If you have an extra high pressure PCP (4500 PSI instead of 3000) I do not think hand pumping is an options. I had one for a while. A Kalibri Cricket. Great gun. It was far superior to the Marauders, but it cost. I got nearly as much as I paid for it when I sold it.
Those Cricket guns get good praise from the UK guys too👍 They've come out with several more models in recent years. Problem with some of those is getting parts. I ran into that with the Hatsan. The gas ram died maybe 6 months after getting it. I'd only shot it twice. Only source is Hatsan USA and they would only sell one if you ship the gun in for repair (warranty). Cost me ~$40 to ship it. It's really long, 48 inches and 10 lbs. Haven't checked but I'd be really surprised if the replacement piston still works today...
I've got welding bottles that need cert, not something I plan on messing with when their empty. Just let it go, craps too complicated nowadays for us piss-ants...
Humidity is a huge issue here. If I touch something metal in the warmer months it needs an oily rag wipe down afterwards or it'll rust. I run a small 2hp 20gal compressor to blow off my mower after each use. It runs for maybe 10 minutes for the job. I'll drain maybe 2-3 tablespoons of water from the tank afterwards. I've seen the pictures of guys Marauders that haven't kept their air dry and are now junk. Just not worth the hassle for me to mess with in this climate. I kinda envy where you're located and what you can get away with ;-)
Envy me in August when the fish are biting and its to damned hot to step outside. LOL. My wife is from Ann Arbor, Michigan. She talked me into going with her to camp out at the Wheatland Music Festival once. In the desert here it was still hot, but I froze for five days at Wheatland and my feet never did get warm. This from a guy who used to run trap lines in the winter and didn't come home from camping for weeks at a time.
When I ran traps there were mornings I'd pour my skillet full of water to soak while I made coffee, and by the time my coffee was ready I'd knock the cake of ice out of the skillet. I could get my feet warm on a freezing night in the desert. I never got my feet warm at Wheatland.
You know what. You are right. I like the desert too. Envy me. LOL.
Grass is always greener on the other side ;-)
Just remembered to look this up:
Iexas is a bit further than you think. Arizona and New Mexico are in the way to get there. I'm in that part of Arizona where if you go due west you run into Mexico. Not California.
Pretty reasonable price on his suppressors. I made one for the B-50 a while back, but I cheated. I used a stack of the plastic cones with a spring just like in the barrel shroud of the Marauder. It works very well. The light clack of the plastic cones resetting is louder than the report.
I shy away from direct threaded devices for airguns. While the appeals court cases says the BATFE has to prove "intent" I think a threaded suppressor might tempt them to make me drag it out and fight back. I have an 03 FFL (collectors license). Its not likely to happen, but that pretty much entitles them to look at my gun log, and my gun collection whenever they want. I don't currently have anything with a threaded muzzle that doesn't have a pinned or welded in place muzzle device, but I might someday. I tend to buy "lots" of junk and gunsmith special guns, and then repair them one at a time. There is no telling what could arrive in one of those lots. Fortunately at least I only have to log those guns I buy with my license.
I like soft tip set screws and a close slip fit or a compression sleeve built into the muzzle device. That makes it pretty clear its not intended for anything with higher pressure. I also build the sleeve out of thin aluminum. Same reason.
Suppressor for underlever? Is that a springer? I didn't think suppressors did much for springers with the spring noise and piston clack usually being far louder than the muzzle report.
Ask the UK guys. They put suppressors on EVERYTHING because they are so LOUD😏
Even when my Diana 48 diesels it sounds more like a .22 misfire than any powder burner I've ever heard... I like shooting airguns because they are pretty quiet and most people don't take any notice.
I was looking all around that website for clarification on how his suppressors are legal, knowing they aren't with out a special permit for powder burners. You more or less answered my question. It depends on how ATF feels the day they happen to check you out😬
Almost talked myself into a folder stock for my P1377 till I read it blocks the rear sight. I'd like to get the metal action-block for it but the price has always went up some more when I go look at them again... Very deep and expensive rabbit hole time you add the action-block, longer barrel, folder stock, fatter pump handle ;-)
Airgun suppressors are legal. If not then Crosman/Benjamin would not make the Marauder with one. Many many years ago when Benjamin was still its own company the owner/president went on a tirade about how suppressors weren't needed on airguns and Benjamin would never sell a gun with one on it.
If you haven't read it there is an appeals court case where the BATFE decided to make an example out of a convicted felon named Crooker. The guy sold an airgun suppressor for an airgun with intent that it be used on an airgun. They obviously cherry picked a case they thought they could abuse against a easy target (felon) to set a precedent. They did get a conviction in the lower court. The BATFE lost at the appeals court level. I don't recall what district it was. The court said they had to show that Crooker had intent to use it on anything other than an airgun. Since airguns are not firearms under federal law airgun suppressors are not firearms either. The BATFE utterly failed to prove intent. The initial conviction was overturned making it case law at least in that district.
I do occasionally buy potatoes, pillows, and two liter plastic bottles. I've even owned an oil filter or two.
Companies have been making airgun suppressors for airguns ever since. (and before)
At one time I thought about getting a Crosman 2240 and doing all the mods. I even bought one. Then I realized I could build the gun from scratch better and for less. I sent the gun back. The fact that it was manufactured and assembled crooked might have been a factor.
You know this is a metal working group? You could make your own airgun receiver, folding stock, etc. We would all cheer you on.
I should add when it comes to airgun suppressors you are more likely to run afoul of state laws than federal law. New Jersey (one of the most anti gun states) I've heard doesn't allow them at all.
Yeah, it was just a few years ago here (MI) that they legislated changes so we could buy a pellet pistol without having to get background check and register it same as a powder burner. It took numerous attempts and years to get changed. There were some "suppressor" changes for them made at the same time. Shrouded barrels were a no-no as I recall before the changes. I'd have go look up what was finally decided before getting one. The point is kinda moot though without tearing off the molded front sight assemble to fit one...
I'm in complete agreement with your modding these conclusion. The steel-breech is $65 + $65 for a new steel rear sight to fit it. That's why I always let the crazy thought go until I add up the costs again...
You're right I could build one but at this point in my life I'd rather just dream about it and type on the keyboard while eating lunch ;-)
It might be a little more be fun to pepper pests with a Hatsan Blitz.
If it actually worked it would be fun to play with👍 My confidence in Hatsan quality and longevity though is pretty low...
Several Twitter users have tagged them with some interesting issues like this🙄 There were others too if you just search on @HatsanUSA.
Maybe I should get another BB shooter and try that again. Wonder how the dust BB's would work with those kind of vermin ;-)
If I were to buy another Hatsan I'd probably look at refrubs from Field Supply.
Mine has not really had any issues other than its just to darn powerful for a springer. Well... and the lever will break your fingers if you let it slip.
For a springer plinker I'd probably talk to Dragon Air Rifles about a tuned noname Chinese import or maybe see what Xisiso is importing. I might even go wander around the swap meet.
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