I have a dream - Metalworking ++

A long time dream goal in life involves first a building to make my shop in. Then set up a home shop with a bit of manual and CNC machines, plus automation equipment & controls like what I do for my day job.

Jumping ahead, the desired end result would be that I make things in my home shop but using automation and sell the items to others interested in whatever I'm making.

So, in the shop, I would make hobby projects using manual and CNC machines, and if there seemed to be much interest, I could set up for automation to have a mini production line. Perhaps not full, lights out, automation but find a happy medium of cost of automation versus labor savings, using automation to make a person as productive as practical.

The manual machine tools would be more for the one off items and to construct the automated or semi-automated equipment.

For an example, I'd like to automate a progressive reloading press. After I get a part of it automated, make the parts needed to sell to others. For example if someone sets up a gear motor or cylinder to operate the press lever, a control with sensors sensing cases, bullets, powder and jams could stop the motor and alarm if something wasn't right. You wouldn't have to use a PLC costing $$$ but maybe a low-cost microcontroller board with free programming software. They already have alarms for reloading presses for powder level in the powder measure and level in the cartridge case, if these went to inputs in a controller they could stop the operation.

So worst case I'd have a home machine shop and not make any money from it, best case I'd make some money and perhaps grow into something more than a hobby. But if I didn't make any money, I'd get to work with my son, show him how to run the manual and CNC machines, program CNC lathe and mill, PLC's and robots. He'd get hands on experience in machining, CNC operation and programming, CAD design, electrical. I think it would be better experience than flipping burgers! Seems employers want young people with years of college and years of experience, they want someone 5 years of experience using 2014 software!

There is also some potential opportunity to sell parts to my employer. There is an approved vendor that can buy from employees and sell to the company. One of our maintenance mechanics bought an industrial sewing machine and makes dust collector boots that use Velcro. This saves a lot of time and disassembly in the boot replacement, it's not a secret and others don't have a problem with it, they appreciate the savings in time and labor.

The thing holding me back is money, I asked my bank and they don't seem interested in loaning money unless you can prove to them that you don't need it! My credit score has fallen after buying a new car but it's still over

760, excellent. I work day shift and that's about the only time you can talk to banks about loans so it's difficult to get time to call them.

RogerN

Reply to
RogerN
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I spent my working career building custom industrial equipment and developing engineers' ideas. Much of the work was electronic, but when I had to demonstrate my mechanical proposals I could machine adequate proof-of-concept models on my entirely manual machine tools from the

1960's, a Clausing vertical mill, a South Bend Heavy 10 lathe and a Delta Toolmaker surface grinder. jsw
Reply to
Jim Wilkins

I think that as a general case, taking business loans is usually a bad idea, at least outside of the real estate arena.

Money should grow from natural sources, a.k.a revenue and savings.

i
Reply to
Ignoramus11177

I'm not wanting a business loan, just money for the building. I bought my house and 4.5 acres for $41,500 over 10 years ago, if I got a $20k for building, concrete, & electrical, I'd have $61,500 in my home , building, and acreage. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I plan to check with another area bank that does construction loans, thought I may be able to get it refinanced at a lower rate plus the building added on.

RogerN

Reply to
RogerN

I always appreciate those that can design parts that are machining friendly. Some mechanical designers will draw an easy to draw line without realizing how long that it's going to take to cut.

RogerN

Reply to
RogerN

That's a great badge of honor, Jim. Kudos.

Reply to
Larry Jaques

Don't even talk tothe bank about business plans. You need to ask for a second mortgage for home improvement. If you have 20% equity and adequate cash flow, it will sail right through.

I bet I "improved" my home almost every year for nearly twenty years.

never mind that I used it to buy inputs in May and then repaid in full in October.

Fortunately, I'm in a position to no longer need to do this.

karl

Reply to
Karl Townsend

It's a rare, and precious worker who understands his own job, and the next job beyond his.

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

I was drafting parts for GM production line equipment when I realized that I should better understand the processes of forming them.

By the time I had the basement space and spare cash for a hobby shop I was working in satellite communications. There's a considerable mechanical element to practice on in building microwave circuits. The old-timers familiar with waveguides and cavity filters understood it, but not all the newer EE grads did and I had to bring touchy-feely models to meetings to convince them that they could trust me to make things they didn't fully understand work right. .

jsw

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

That home shop is similar to the model shop I inherited at Mitre, where previous, retired engineers and techs had prototyped advanced military electronics for the Cold War.

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They had a real shop too, but the machinists required finished drawings and wouldn't let engineers doodle on the HLV. jsw

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

I found that electrical engineers had so much to study in their own field that they knew very little outside it, such as even the basics of mechanical engineering. MEs weren't much better with electricity.

My degree is in Chemistry, which has such wide application that it's practically a general science degree, covering nearly the whole range of Matter and a considerable part of Energy (Physics) like Statics and simple Kinetics. For much of it we learned only enough to understand the specialized, often proprietary explanations wherever we took a job.

For example that's where I learned about the strength of threaded joints and how they fail, the circuit diagram for a 3-way light switch, and how to calculate the capacitance between my hand and the planet Saturn.

jsw

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

As an old joke has it, a machinist is somebody that can make anything except money...

IMNSHO, cutting metal is the easy (and fun) part. Marketing, sales, accounting/credit, inventory control, personnel/HR, etc. are the killers.

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

What you described in your original post, is borrowing money for a business operation.

Refinancing may be a possible avenue, yes. But it does not negate what I said.

i
Reply to
Ignoramus11177

Isn't that considered normal for farmers? That kind of life would scare the crap out of me. I have NEVER bought anything (except my house which is finally paid off) that I couldn't buy for cash.

But agreed. For Roger, a home improvement or home equity loan would make sense, but not if he doesn't have the means to repay it.

Reply to
rangerssuck

Something I wasn't clear on. I want to finance the building because I don't have the cash, I've been paying 32% child support since I was making around $8 per hour, and sometimes less, over 18 years. Making money in my home shop will not be required to make the payments, I will not borrow what I can't pay on my current income. I have a 2nd home that my mom currently lives in and that is where my current shop is, about 5 miles away. Whenever my mom decides, she can move and I can sell that place. It would be nice to have my shop moved over here and what I want to keep moved out of that building. At that time I should have a little cash and get rid of the mortgage and property tax payment. So, though I don't have the cash, I do have assets of value that I could get rid of before I'd get in a financial bind, if it came to that.

RogerN

Reply to
RogerN

If they turned you down for a $20k home improvement loan it's because they decided the place wouldn't have enough equity after the improvement. You're also in a very poor financial situation unless you're only 25 or something. Have you considered using the time you waste here to work a part time job instead? Unless you're useless you ought to be able to earn $20k in a year instead of borrowing it. Maybe you're not praying hard enough. Have you tried squinting and clenching your butt cheeks during your chats with your imaginary friend?

Reply to
whoyakidding's ghost

Yeah, I wasn't clear. I already have the bulk of what I want for my shop, a manual & CNC lathe, 2 manual mills plus a CNC mill, air compressor, press, cherry picker, forklift, band saw, and so on. All I need is the building, there would be minor other expenses, I figured in the electrical to the shop plus inside plus light fixtures and outlets. Other expenses are like the forklift needs a battery, need shelving, maybe a wall for office area and tool room, and misc. things like that.

The building is something I want anyway, I'm not going to depend on any income, that would just be a bonus. But I do think there's a chance as I make things for hobby that it could grow to become a steady income possibly beyond my day job. I have turned down paying machining work that I would take if I had the shop handy, a friend rebuilds valves and cylinders, I can make about $40 in 30 minutes machining a cylinder rod but loading up and going to the shop makes it a couple hour ordeal. I can make the same rod in the CNC lathe in about 5 minutes.

RogerN

Reply to
RogerN

How do you deal with the hard chrome and case-hardening?

jsw

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

So ask simply for a loan to build a metal shop building. Chances are the metal building folks in your area know which banks are easy to deal with for such things.

Reply to
Pete C.

Roger, I would try to make money, on an honest-to-yourself basis, with whatever you have right now. If you can make money, then making investments to expand that makes sense. If you cannot make money, then expansion would not be advisable. To see if you are making money, you would need to maintain honest accounting. Accounting for inventory, etc.

That would be a good test to see if pursuing your dream makes sense.

i
Reply to
Ignoramus11177

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