Inverting electrical panel 180 degrees?

No allowance for room in the box (consumed volume for heat dissipation maybe, and room for wiring) to run the feeds from bottom to top. Maybe also insufficient room in the box to properly radius the bends.

Dave

Dave said it right--jes beat me to it! Jerry

stryped fired this volley in news:47e3d947-8830- snipped-for-privacy@z24g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:

You've asked a lot of what we thought were dumb questions before, Stryper.

This pretty much kicks it.

LLoyd

To me, this is a question from a noob who realizes there is a reason, does not know the reason, and would like to know the reason. Dumb, to me, would be just ignoring the instructions and doing it the wrong way.

Dave

True enough, as far as it goes -- but IMHO "dumb" also includes the inability to figure things out on one's own. It should have been clear with even five seconds' reflection that the farther the main breakers are from the point at which the conductors enter the box, the more difficult it would be to install them. The other considerations which Dave listed (bending space, etc) are less obvious, but the difficulty of installation should have been plain had the OP given the matter *any* thought at all.

XR650L_Dave fired this volley in news: snipped-for-privacy@q5g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:

reason,

You obviously aren't familiar with Stryped and his questions.

Of course, by my giving it away ahead of time, he'll demurr, but the next question he'd likely ask would be, "If I bottom feed it, but don't invert the box, will I have to bend any wires?"... or some such.

This isn't Noobee stuff, it's "do my thinking for me, so I don't have to" stuff.

I wish he were installing 4-0 mains; then he'd answer his own question real quick!

LLoyd

Jeez guys, give the man a break. Stupid is not asking question because you "think" you know all the answers. I have seen hundreds of panels fed from the bottom with a top main. If someone sees instructions to the contrary, there is no harm in them making sure they understand "all" the possible reasons why, regardless of their level of experience.

Won't hurt a thing though.

The new rules require that you don't have to bend the wires much before landing them on the main lugs or main breaker "Line" side. They want them to have a straight shot at the lugs.

As a practical matter, if you have enough wire in the can to bring the feeders up and around to the line lugs at the top of the can, install it right side up. If the feeder wires are going to end up too short to get to the top of the new can, then you can go through the hassle of inverting the guts.

But whether you invert the can or not you always want to find a way to make a loop or S-turn wiggle to leave some working slack in the can

- You can cut that wire a dozen times, and it'll still be too short.

When a line lug or main breaker lug goes bad it inevitably overheats the wire too, you always have a few inches of crispy wire that has to be trimmed back. With conduit in the walls you can always re-run the feeders when they get too short, but if you have Feeder Cable in the walls re-running it to get some slack is a huge mess.

You NEVER want to make the wires banjo-tight just to save a foot or two of wire, be nice and leave some slack in each can to work with - because the next guy that has to work on it might be you.

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I refer you to Lloyd's response to Dave upthread: you obviously aren't familiar with Stryped and his questions. We see the same sort of questions over on rec.woodworking, too, from the same guy.

And, presumably, they were listed for such use, and were not accompanied by instructions to the contrary.

Maybe I misread the original post, but it sure didn't read to me like he was interested in finding out why. Looked more to me like he wanted someone to tell him it was ok to mount it the way he wanted to, regardless of the instructions.

Wrong. Installing the equipment in a manner contrary to the manufacturer's instructions is a Code violation. You have no idea if there's enough space in that can to bend the wires for a bottom-feed, top-breaker installation. The manufacturer *does*. And the manufacturer says don't do that.

Wrong. Altering the equipment in any manner not explicitly provided for in the manufacturer's instructions is a Code violation.

Please post your question here:

alt.engineering.electrical

In Canada, panels are split by a divider into the main breaker and the branch circuit sections. It is against code to run the main feed through the branch circuit section or vice versa, so unless you want to bring the cable up the side and over and down you must invert the panel.

In the US, local codes may vary.

However in Canada, you may mount the panel sideways which is much more sensible. This is against code in the US (so far).

So, check your local codes.

I'm familiar with Stryped's questions. His is building a shop and attempting to do a lot of things himself. So what?

If you don't want to answer his questions, just skip it, like all the political nonsense posted here. At least it's a question, and not a statement, and everyone that reads the discussion can benefit from it, if they don't already know all the answers.

The one thing he's *not* attempting to do himself is *think*.

Away into the turd file

Gunner

Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do something damned nasty to all three of them.

What's the problem, Doug? Did somebody piss on your Cheerios today?

You appear to have a great deal of trouble treating others with respect. If you can't say something nice about others, maybe you should learn to keep your yap shut.

Harold

Nope, just people who expect others to do all their thinking for them. Review Stryped's posting history here and in rec.woodworking for multiple examples.

Lloyd has been even less kind to Stryped than I was -- I'm waiting for you to direct similar comments to him too.

snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) fired this volley in news:h7dqk9$ai5 $ snipped-for-privacy@news.eternal-september.org:

True. I spent hours of thought and typing trying early-on to help him, only to discover he didn't want _help_, he wanted us to _do_ every job for him by remote control.

So, call it an earned right to criticize.

I wish him every failure. Before you condemn me for writing that, consider: That's how we all learned to do things right. He's not going to ever learn anything unless he jumps off his crutches (us), and starts making some mistakes on his own.

LLoyd

The same manufacturer who likes to stencil "No User Serviceable Parts Inside, Do Not Open" just to get you to throw it out and buy another?

Some days you can do it exactly like they say and go home. But there are the times you have to read the instructions and understand what they want and why they want it - then ignore parts of the instructions and do your work in a Safe and Workmanlike Manner. And be prepared to defend your logic and decisions.

Often because the customer isn't going to pay you to rip out the entire panel and start over just to make it look like the ideal pretty picture on the cover of the instructions.

That instruction sheet can be a valuable resource - but a lot of the stuff they print is in there solely for Lawsuit Immunity and nothing else.

Sunshade instructions printed on the back side: "Remove from your car windshield before driving the car." You say "Well, Duh!" but they have been sued for far stupider stuff before - and lost.

Example: Do you always shut off power to the entire building just to work on a branch circuit? The first paragraphs of the instruction sheet are inevitably a whole laundry list of Shall Nots, and the top of the list is "Never Work On Any Electrical Equipment Hot" - and the customer is running an office with 50 computers.

If you shut off the main or start killing branch circuits at random during the day without a Real Good Reason (usually involving flames) they're going to be carrying you out the front door in a pine box, toes first.

And your customer is not paying extra for night work either, so you'll just have to eat it when you come back. IF you can even get access after hours at all - the customer doesn't want to pay an employee or a security guard to let you in and babysit the site.

What color is the sun on your homeworld? Theoretically, you are correct. Practically...

A proper installation with a fused disconnect switch should not have the Line and Load leads crossing inside the can, just in case things get hot and they short against each other. Practically, you aren't going to rebuild an existing old power system just to avoid this.

You call it "Grandfathered" and move on. You do not have to bring the entire1953 installation up to 2009 standards just because you change a bad breaker.

Theoretically, you aren't allowed to modify any pieces inside the panel, you have to replace with all new - but try to order piece parts. For new panels they are not easily identified by part numbers, prohibitively expensive and have a real long lead time. For old panels they are flat out not going to be available, especially if the maker has been out of business for thirty years.

Practically, you get a chunk of 1/8" x 3/4" radius edge copper bar stock and make new main buss bars for that Zinsco panel. Done.

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