Motorhead question

So when I retire in a few years I want to build a sports car from scratch. I have the equipment and knowhow except for the bodywork.
Which means I would get to butyand learn how to use an English wheel. I don't know which engine to use though. So I'm looking for opinions. I want to use a 4 cylinder engine. The engine needs to be fairly common and parts must be available for hopping it up a bit and for general rebuilding. Very important the engine needs to look great. So I'm looking for opinions here. A great looking engine that's fairly common, can be hopped up some, and won't break the bank to work on. Thanks, Eric
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On 17/10/19 7:55 am, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:

I've long wondered about reversing a 4WD Subaru engine and drive-train to make a mid-engined 4WD. The centre of gravity is very low, and there is a plethora of boost options.

Not very easy to show off a mid engine, but ok.
CH
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snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:

Any particular brand or lack of electronics to deal with?
Not many that are really good looking. The old iron duke 2.5 had some really hot parts available that could get you 250-300 hp out of them as Pontiac super duty engines. https://gafiero.akroncdnr.com/docs/IronDukeBuild.pdf
If you want something more modern you can have reliable and power but I'd be hard pressed to call any of them good looking. Power parts wise you would probably need to look at Honda or Toyota for lower cost parts.
As far as making the body, why not look at some of the body kits out there for the kit cars. Or go take a few courses from someone like www.lazzemetalshaping.com
--
Steve W.

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wrote:

I could buy a body but I want to make my own. I may indeed take some classes and appreciate your link. Several years ago I visited a guy in Washington State who was building a land speed record attempting car. I don't know if he ever took it out to the salt flats but I do know that the car was quite impressive. He not only built the engines but also the complete car. It was long and narrow, a typical shape for speed records. The wheels were so close to each other that they almost appeared to be single wheels, also typical. He had done all the body panels himself and had all the sheet metal tools to do the work. He demonstrated a shrinker, which I thought was a really cool device. He showed us how shrinking an edge started the shape of a fender. He showed us other stuff too so the visit to his garage was great fun and really inspiring. Eric
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On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:55:09 -0700, etpm wrote:

Drive train out of an MR-2?
Jon
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wrote:

Try to find one cheap. There's a guy down the road into town who rebuilds rice burners and an entire, multicolored, multiyeared MR-2 car lot sits out front of it in various states of dismantle. He probably has the grabs on everything MR-2 in this half of the state.
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On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:55:09 -0700 snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:

Maybe the Suzuki Hayabusa engine. See if it suits your needs:
https://www.ebay.com/b/Complete-Engines-for-Suzuki-Hayabusa/171108/bn_1488610
Guy's are modifying, using them in their motorcycles on the drag strip with some impressive times. See the wiki article for other uses:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Hayabusa
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Leon Fisk
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The GM Ecotec 4 cylinders look good and the turbocharged versions (LHU) can produce 300 HP (or more) with an ECU tune and will run using a stock GM stand-alone ECU. The DF Goblin kit car uses it in mid-engine configuration.
Also look at midlana.com for building a complete sports car from scratch. He has 2 books on his builds that are very good.
Randy
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On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 4:48:55 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote :

"Looks great" caused me to slam on the brakes. <g> As for your other requir ements, it's hard to beat Hondas for most of them. Japanese law required th at engines be changed at 40,000 miles a decade or so ago, which put a lot o f used ones on the US market. Moderate speed equipment is readily available .
I rebuilt two Alfa Romeo 1300 cc engines in the late '60s. They were beauti ful. One had a Veloce head with twin side-draft DCOE Webers. I don't know o f anything that looks that good today, but it's hard to tell until you get all of that plastic junk off the top of them. I own a 2018 Subaru Crosstrek , and I've seen it with the plastic off of it. Not exactly a thing of beaut y, but I do like the engine.
If you want real sports car performance, avoid turbos. The turbo lag is ant ithetical to sports-car type responsiveness, unless you spend megabucks. Ga rden-variety turbos are not sporty engines. They just wind up -- eventually -- and put out a lot of power. In a light sports car, you don't need that much.
What you need is great throttle response and good breathing. There are a lo t of good engines out there today. Your project is one I've dreamed about o ff and on over the years, and having done some sports-car racing between 19 67 and 1972, I have a good idea of what I'd want my engine to be good at if I ever did it. I'd look at Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. If one dropped in my lap, I'd look at a 3-Series BMW. But I'd make sure that aftermarket parts are readily available for anything I chose. Oh...and make sure you can mate it up with a transmission for rear-wheel drive. Maybe an engine that's use d in a small pickup.
Good luck and have fun!
--
Ed Huntress

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On 19/10/2019 15:42, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

I'd have to disagree about the turbo, my old Lancia Delta HF turbo ie had a slight delay which might be a drawback at a traffic light GP but in real world use such as overtaking the slight delay was more than offset by the performance increase when the boost came on. I would have suggested the FIAT/Lancia engine as a very good looking engine, to me anyway, and lots of tuning potential but they're not nearly as common as they used to be.
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On Saturday, October 19, 2019 at 11:17:43 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
rote:

quirements, it's hard to beat Hondas for most of them. Japanese law require d that engines be changed at 40,000 miles a decade or so ago, which put a l ot of used ones on the US market. Moderate speed equipment is readily avail able.

autiful. One had a Veloce head with twin side-draft DCOE Webers. I don't kn ow of anything that looks that good today, but it's hard to tell until you get all of that plastic junk off the top of them. I own a 2018 Subaru Cross trek, and I've seen it with the plastic off of it. Not exactly a thing of b eauty, but I do like the engine.

antithetical to sports-car type responsiveness, unless you spend megabucks . Garden-variety turbos are not sporty engines. They just wind up -- eventu ally -- and put out a lot of power. In a light sports car, you don't need t hat much.

a lot of good engines out there today. Your project is one I've dreamed abo ut off and on over the years, and having done some sports-car racing betwee n 1967 and 1972, I have a good idea of what I'd want my engine to be good a t if I ever did it. I'd look at Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. If one dropped i n my lap, I'd look at a 3-Series BMW. But I'd make sure that aftermarket pa rts are readily available for anything I chose. Oh...and make sure you can mate it up with a transmission for rear-wheel drive. Maybe an engine that's used in a small pickup.

1) Try getting parts for one in North America. d8-) 2) The "slight delay" is not fun when you're powering out of a late-apex tu rn.
Turbo lag is not something that most sports car enthusiasts take lightly. I t's fine for other types of driving.
I loved the Lancia Stratos, BTW, although it was a bit fierce for me. I got to drive one years ago but it would have taken some time to get used to it . It's too bad that FIAT won't sell Lancias outside of Italy anymore, but t hey racked up a pretty bad reputation over here during the short time they were sold in N.A.
--
Ed Huntress

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On 19/10/2019 16:42, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

While I know that Lancia pulled out to the UK years ago largely due to the Beta rust fiasco I don't think they ever pulled out of Europe as a whole as when I've been on the continent I've seen plenty of much newer Lancias driving about. Lancia were still selling the Deltas in the UK but that may have been the last model they sold here apart from the odd Gamma and Thema. I read recently that the Alfasud was made with Russian steel so maybe the same stuff that Lancia used, Alfa Romeo still sell here but I guess better made than in the old days.
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On Saturday, October 19, 2019 at 1:22:47 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:

ote:
wrote:

.
d
or

requirements, it's hard to beat Hondas for most of them. Japanese law requi red that engines be changed at 40,000 miles a decade or so ago, which put a lot of used ones on the US market. Moderate speed equipment is readily ava ilable.

beautiful. One had a Veloce head with twin side-draft DCOE Webers. I don't know of anything that looks that good today, but it's hard to tell until yo u get all of that plastic junk off the top of them. I own a 2018 Subaru Cro sstrek, and I've seen it with the plastic off of it. Not exactly a thing of beauty, but I do like the engine.

is antithetical to sports-car type responsiveness, unless you spend megabuc ks. Garden-variety turbos are not sporty engines. They just wind up -- even tually -- and put out a lot of power. In a light sports car, you don't need that much.

e a lot of good engines out there today. Your project is one I've dreamed a bout off and on over the years, and having done some sports-car racing betw een 1967 and 1972, I have a good idea of what I'd want my engine to be good at if I ever did it. I'd look at Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. If one dropped in my lap, I'd look at a 3-Series BMW. But I'd make sure that aftermarket parts are readily available for anything I chose. Oh...and make sure you ca n mate it up with a transmission for rear-wheel drive. Maybe an engine that 's used in a small pickup.

e
as

x turn.

y. It's fine for other types of driving.

got to drive one years ago but it would have taken some time to get used t o it. It's too bad that FIAT won't sell Lancias outside of Italy anymore, b ut they racked up a pretty bad reputation over here during the short time t hey were sold in N.A.

Here's the story on Lancia as of today:
https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/lancia-passes-fiat-ownership-landmar k-no-celebration-storied-brand
One car model, one country. FIAT has its fingers in so many old brands that it's hard to tell who makes what now. They've rebranded a couple of Americ an Chrysler models as Lancias in recent years.
They've made another push with Alfa Romeo in the US over the past year. Whe n I was in the advertising business they were my client for a short while, just before they pulled out again. They come, they go.
--
Ed Huntress

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On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 08:42:50 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Saw lots of them in Greece last week - - -

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On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 07:42:27 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

I am also considering motorcycle engines, though I dont know how I would marry one to a transmission. But a V twin, a BMW boxer twin, and a 4 cylinder boxer engine have all crossed my mind. There are some older foreign engines I really like but then that may make parts hard to get and expensive. Eric
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On 19/10/2019 20:12, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:

Have a look at the modern Morgan 3 wheeler, that apparently uses a US sourced V twin engine similar to the Harley Davidson mated to a Mazda gearbox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_3-Wheeler . There is some film of them being built and the engine being fitted to the frame it may be available online.
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On Saturday, October 19, 2019 at 3:12:14 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:

ote:

uirements, it's hard to beat Hondas for most of them. Japanese law required that engines be changed at 40,000 miles a decade or so ago, which put a lo t of used ones on the US market. Moderate speed equipment is readily availa ble.

utiful. One had a Veloce head with twin side-draft DCOE Webers. I don't kno w of anything that looks that good today, but it's hard to tell until you g et all of that plastic junk off the top of them. I own a 2018 Subaru Crosst rek, and I've seen it with the plastic off of it. Not exactly a thing of be auty, but I do like the engine.

antithetical to sports-car type responsiveness, unless you spend megabucks. Garden-variety turbos are not sporty engines. They just wind up -- eventua lly -- and put out a lot of power. In a light sports car, you don't need th at much.

lot of good engines out there today. Your project is one I've dreamed abou t off and on over the years, and having done some sports-car racing between 1967 and 1972, I have a good idea of what I'd want my engine to be good at if I ever did it. I'd look at Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. If one dropped in my lap, I'd look at a 3-Series BMW. But I'd make sure that aftermarket par ts are readily available for anything I chose. Oh...and make sure you can m ate it up with a transmission for rear-wheel drive. Maybe an engine that's used in a small pickup.

Well, there have been some successful ones. In the early days of the Locost , at least one was powered with a Honda Fireblade (CBR 1000RR, 998 cc) moto rcycle engine, and the report was that it was faster than a Locost powered by a Rover V8 (essentially the old 215 cu. in. Oldsmobile aluminum V8).
It's all a matter of what you want in a car of this type. When the original Lotus 6 (soon to be Lotus 7) came out, you could put any engine in it that you wanted. Lotus would deliver them with 948 cc Morris engine or a Ford A nglia. Neither one put out more than 50 hp in stock trim, but they were rac e winners.
My college roommate has one of the 50 Lotus 7 Mk. 4s delivered in the US, a nd he has a 1600 cc Ford Pinto engine it it. That's essentially the same en gine as the English Ford 125E New Kent -- probably the most common engine i n Lotus 7s. I've driven it; it probably doesn't have more than 100 hp, but it weighs less than 1300 lb. and it goes like hell.
So decide if you want a wild thing or something that's a little more relaxi ng to drive. It doesn't take much power to make those little space-frame cl ub racers really run. But it has to suit *you* or it isn't worth the troubl e.
Have fun!
--
Ed Huntress

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On 19/10/2019 21:24, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

I think you have the wrong engine in mind there, the Ford Pinto engine was OHC see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto_engine while the Kent in various derivations was OHV see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Kent_engine . A mate has a Caterham7 (Lotus 7) with the Kent engine in 135hp Supersport spec but neither is a great engine IMO just very common and easy to come by or were.
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On Saturday, October 19, 2019 at 5:10:09 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
ote:

wrote:

.
d
r
requirements, it's hard to beat Hondas for most of them. Japanese law requi red that engines be changed at 40,000 miles a decade or so ago, which put a lot of used ones on the US market. Moderate speed equipment is readily ava ilable.

beautiful. One had a Veloce head with twin side-draft DCOE Webers. I don't know of anything that looks that good today, but it's hard to tell until yo u get all of that plastic junk off the top of them. I own a 2018 Subaru Cro sstrek, and I've seen it with the plastic off of it. Not exactly a thing of beauty, but I do like the engine.

is antithetical to sports-car type responsiveness, unless you spend megabuc ks. Garden-variety turbos are not sporty engines. They just wind up -- even tually -- and put out a lot of power. In a light sports car, you don't need that much.

e a lot of good engines out there today. Your project is one I've dreamed a bout off and on over the years, and having done some sports-car racing betw een 1967 and 1972, I have a good idea of what I'd want my engine to be good at if I ever did it. I'd look at Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. If one dropped in my lap, I'd look at a 3-Series BMW. But I'd make sure that aftermarket parts are readily available for anything I chose. Oh...and make sure you ca n mate it up with a transmission for rear-wheel drive. Maybe an engine that 's used in a small pickup.

cost, at least one was powered with a Honda Fireblade (CBR 1000RR, 998 cc) motorcycle engine, and the report was that it was faster than a Locost powe red by a Rover V8 (essentially the old 215 cu. in. Oldsmobile aluminum V8).

inal Lotus 6 (soon to be Lotus 7) came out, you could put any engine in it that you wanted. Lotus would deliver them with 948 cc Morris engine or a Fo rd Anglia. Neither one put out more than 50 hp in stock trim, but they were race winners.

S, and he has a 1600 cc Ford Pinto engine it it. That's essentially the sam e engine as the English Ford 125E New Kent -- probably the most common engi ne in Lotus 7s. I've driven it; it probably doesn't have more than 100 hp, but it weighs less than 1300 lb. and it goes like hell.

laxing to drive. It doesn't take much power to make those little space-fram e club racers really run. But it has to suit *you* or it isn't worth the tr ouble.

No, Dave, I have the right engine. The Pinto was available with a 1600 cc p ushrod -- essentially the English Ford New Kent -- or with the 2.0 - 2.3 li ter SOHC engine (that had too few oil holes in the crankshaft, and tended t o burn up main bearings <g>). I know both engines from personal experience -- mostly bad. d8-)
The 125E New Kent was a well-developed engine that began with the 105E, whi ch had a hollow crankshaft. I owned one car with a 115E and worked on a fri end's car with the 109E. I was very familiar with the whole series. They pi
wound up being the basis of more sports-car and racing engines than, probab ly, any other. Aside from the short stroke, there was nothing unusual about them, but they were pretty sound and had a lot of horsepower potential.
I also once got the lousy job of adjusting valves on a Holbay-headed, cross -flow Kent, and, to my misfortune, the twin-cam Lotus version, from which I ran as fast as I could. d8-)
When word got around our local chapter of the SCCA that I knew a way to col d-lash the valves on a Bristol engine, all sorts of things showed up in my driveway on Sunday afternoons. They thought I was a magician. Tney were wro ng. I just had an English mechanic friend who knew all the tricks, and was very patient in teaching me.
Ed Huntress
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On 19/10/2019 22:40, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:


Sounds like 2 countries separated by a common language, on this side of the pond the Pinto engine always referred to the OHC engine as fitted to
know the Kent OHV was fitted to the Pinto but basically your mate has the Kent OHV engine in his Lotus 7 by the sound of it. I know an engine machinist that specialises in the Lotus twin cam, BDA, and some Ford Kent Xflow head work and he didn't seem too traumatised when I met up with him again recently but he did mention that the twin cam blocks differed from the standard blocks as they were beefier and marked with a big L on the block casting and maybe other changes for reliability. An ex racing driver I used to know told me about head work on the old Aston Martin straight 6 engines and why so few people wanted to work on them as apparently they have no shims and the valves stems have to be ground or the seats cut to get the gaps right, makes the FIAT system with the shims on top of the bucket tappets a dream, IIRC VAG adopted it under license and a mate mentioned that even Ford don't use hydraulic tappets on some engines these days as when shimmed in manufacture they last which was my experience on the FIAT engines when maintained.
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