New Chinese mill vs old high quality mill

The Griz has a power feed, the Bridgie doesn't. Of course you can add a power feed to the Bridgie, but that's extra $$$.

The Bridgie has a vari-speed head, the Griz doesn't. Old vari-speeds can be trouble, and expensive to repair, OTOH being limited to 5 speeds tends to suck, especially since the Griz doesn't have back gears. (That'd make boring and face milling problematic.)

The Bridgie requires 3 ph power, the Griz runs on household AC. This has both pluses and minuses. You won't need a rotary converter or VFD to run the Griz. OTOH, you can't use a VFD to give the Griz vari-speed. You will need to budget for a rotary converter or VFD to run the Bridgie in a home shop. That need not be very expensive, but you have to have it.

The Bridgie has obvious rust, hopefully the Griz doesn't. (Harold would have a fit, but the rust doesn't look too bad in the pictures. It'd probably clean up ok.)

Between those two particular machines, I'd probably gamble on the Bridgeport. However, you're really comparing apples and oranges. The Griz you selected is a lightweight. A closer Griz match to the Bridgie would be

Now you're closer to comparing apples with apples. Mass is critical in a mill, more is better. No way a light mill can equal a heavier one in terms of rigidity. Rigidity is the primary thing, other than wear, that controls the ultimate precision and quality of cut a mill is capable of producing. (Yes, now we're talking about a $4,000 machine, but a Bridgeport was an $18,000 machine when it was new.)

I wouldn't say the Chinese machine would require a comprehensive overhaul. You will need to clean off the shipping grease, check for casting sand, change the lubricant, maybe deburr a few edges, do normal adjustments and setup, etc, but you shouldn't need to fabricate, modify, or replace any parts. I have an ENCO mill similar to the larger of the 2 Grizzly mills listed above. It took about 4 hours to get it ready to work.

You know you're going to have to derust the Bridgie, maybe work on the vari-speed ($$$), and if there is significant wear in critical areas, returning it to like new precision is almost certainly going to cost more than it is worth. (Not saying that's the case with the particular machine you listed, but it could be.)

The light Chinese machine you chose is never going to match the performance of a Bridgeport in good condition. OTOH the Griz model I indicated probably would equal or surpass a used Bridgeport with very minimal setup.

It is possible to find a Bridgie which has only had light use, and has been well maintained. That would be a good machine to have. But it is also possible to find one that's got serious and expensive problems. You can't generalize too much about used equipment. Everything depends on the exact details of the condition of the particular machine.

To answer your question, yes it is possible to get a used Bridgeport in good condition for $2500 (sometimes less if you bypass dealers and handle it as a private sale). The real question is, how can you be sure the one you choose actually is in good condition? And what will it cost to repair it if it isn't?

If you aren't intimately familiar with the machines, it'll probably pay to hire a good independent Bridgeport tech to inspect any used machine you might want to buy. He'll be able to spot problems that you'd probably completely miss, and tell you whether it is worth the cost of repair.

Note that while Machinery Values offers a 30 day return privilege, you'd still be stuck with the freight charges both ways, and these machines are heavy, so that could be a fair sum of money. It'd be better to get the machine checked up front before it is bought and shipped. At least they say it can be inspected under power. That's a good sign.

Gary

Whoops. That would rate that particular machine a 'no thanks' for me, right there.

Jim

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I spent several hours removing the shipping grease on my Enco 9x49" variable speed mill, but that was all. It didn't require any repair.

Very likely at that price.

My Bridgeport Series 1 price survey has been: $1500 for serviceable but with severe wear or broken head, $2500 for running but with moderate to severe wear, and $3500 and up for running with light to moderate wear.

I am now working myself on scraping a well-worn (e.g., middle of knee concave by 0.005", gibs shimmed with pieces of crate strapping metal!) Bridgeport. It has been quite educational and a project of making tools and gages in itself. Quite a few $100s in cash to buy books and tools, and quite a few hours making and improvising some of the tools. Getting this kind of rebuild done right is perhaps $3000 to hire out, and you probably have to ship the machine to get it in the hands of someone who does it. I figured out why some of these old machines have such pretty body-shop repaint jobs on them: the effort to do that is a small fraction of the effort to get the machine back to factory alignment.

The most valuable lessons of all are that I am now become knowledgeable at evaluating all aspects of Bridgeport wear. There's no way you can work on repairing alignment without knowing everything there is to know about measuring it first. Sometimes you learn the hard way. I spent a week rough and finish scraping the knee ways, and then discovered my datum surface was off.

I am also converting the ways to teflon bearings, which should make this machine last forever before realignment is needed again.

The pricing on Bridgeport's vary greatly with location. I could find a VERY good Bridgeport for $3000 it might take a few but they are out there. I some locations that might not be possible. As to the Griz, I would want to see one (same with the Bridgeport) before buying. I looked at a 18" grizzly band saw just 2 days ago and was not very impressed with its quality. Every part on the machine was as minimum as it could be. I own a Millport milling machine and its an import copy of a Bridgeport. I use both mine and my dads Bridgeport and see no real difference. Take a look

But I was able to try before I buy, and the seller offered it to me at a very LOW price.

Teflon? You maybe mean turcite, or rulon.

Plain PTFE would be a poor choice for a way bearing surface IMO.

Jim

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--Lotsa good "old iron" out there; some of it not too worn out, too. And remember there are some pretty reasonably priced ways to bring a beater back to life, like replacing the bronze nut (forgot the proper name) that the Acme screws run thru, or even just tightening up the old one... If I had room for a Bridgeport-sized machine I'd start looking for an old Webb. Used to operate one when I worked in So Calif; they're massive, have more Y-axis travel than a standard Series 1 and you just can't wear them out.

I have a few questions.

1. How did you conduct yor "Price Survey?" In the NY-NJ area I thought 00 was the very high end for a manual Series 1 machine. I knew plenty of examples of one being sold for 0. Yes it is true not every one is still in good shape, but if you can run a few operations before you buy it, hop in the car and go see it.

Can someone recommend a good test regimen? Armed with this, does a non expert really need to hire a technician?

1. Someone said that a vfd could be used as a speed control on a Grizzly that runs on house current. That's wrong, right?

1. Is there anyone who would actually prefer a new Enco to a used but sound BP? In '98 I bought both a 1979 series 1 cnc and a big Enco lathe. I bet I spent fifty bucks just on band-aids from all the sharp edges and burrs on the Enco. I also spent probably fifty hours just on setup, adjustment and maintenance. In the end, it did do a lot of work for me, and had a lot of guts, but I never overcame vibration problems that left surface texture and increased finishing time. A guy down the street, on the other hand had a very old, very big Clausing (12x60 maybe?)that was a dream machine. I used to rent time on it when precision really mattered. I think he paid about 00. 00 more than my Enco, but it came with a closet full of tooling and no plastic drive gears.

The BP, on the other hand was true blue. The electronics on it were shit. After two $400 repair visits I invested in an Ah-ha controller. That was very easy to install and get running. The machine itself,however, ran like new. Ways, VSD, spindle bearings, steppers, etc. I didn't even change the oil pump.

I have certainly used old BPs that WERE worn out. You need to spend some time shopping, and be patient, informed, and a little lucky. In my experience, low end imports like Grizzly and Enco will require tons of service right from the start, and torture you for as long as you own them. Good used domestic gear, on the other hand, in non-industrial use, will easily outlive you! Enough said. Robobass

Hell yes. In California, you can get a nice one for $2500 WITH a DRO.

Though again..the trend is slowly reversing as industry starts cranking up again after the recession.

Ebay was the first hard evidence that the economy was finally turning as I watched the prices of DV-59s start to rise again.

Hummm I wonder if I should write a paper titled "Manufacturing in America and the DV59 Index"

Gunner sitting inside for a few, and avoiding the 104 F temp @40% humidity...brack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. - George Orwell

Actually, someone (me) said exactly the opposite. You can't speed control a 1 ph motor with a VFD. You *can* use a VFD to produce 3 ph from 1 ph, allowing you to speed control a 3 ph motor in a shop which is supplied with only 1 ph household power.

Gary

But probably most of those were being sold for omni-turn conversions, right?

Jim

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You have experiences from 1979, but here are some posts from 2003:

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Actually no, they are not. They are being put back into service in the many small (often minority owned) machine shops that are starting to spring up again.

I suspect the time of cheap machines is about over for a while. Cheap great! machines that is.

Btw..a Harding Chucker (HC), DSMA, and AHC are probably the best for putting Omniturns on. A very nice rigid retrofit capable of marvelous work.

Gunner

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. - George Orwell

I hate to jump in on this because I have an apparent conflict of interst. I currently have a Bridgeport mill on ebay. I traded it from a man who rents space in the same room I am in, in an old factory. It was his manual backup mill, he uses a Lagun CNC most of the time. He traded it to me for a mill with a 49" table. This one has a 36" table. Opening bid is set at $1,800. Because it ends early tomorrow, it will probably sell for the opening bid, if it sells at all (the holiday factor). It is a very nice machine and has hard chrome ways. There is nothing wrong with this mill, and it has a Servo powerfeed on it. I traded him a Chinese Bridgeport clone for it, so go figure that into the Chinese vs American iron argument. He's a professional machinist with 30 tears experience. I don't usually use this venue to mention product, but this is a good Bridgeport, right in the price range mentioned. A little shipping and you are at the $2,500 budget. Paul (papapault)

Now I do think there is a difference in Taiwanese tools and tools made in China. I am FAR from an expert but I have seen some real CRAP from the China makers, and very little good stuff. Just the other day I looked at a good size drill press with a MT3 spindle that had a lot more play than my 50 year old delta. Almost all of the stuff from China I see is of poor workmanship. Now look at a Takasawi engine lathe that is Taiwanese made, and its a work of art. My mill is Taiwanese and it is a very nice machine, its over 20 years old and has been used a good amount and it is still very tight. The man I bought it from had both the Millport and a Bridgeport and said he used the Millport more, its the mill he preferred to run. My father is a close friend of the seller and had said for years that he liked the Millport more. I now own the machine and am very happy with it.

I agree, there are many nuances. The idea of "high tech" is really "new tech". The long established industries moved from England to the US for cheaper labor 200 years ago. Now industries that anyone can do move from the US to Japan, from Japan to Taiwan, and from Taiwan to China. Higher up the chain gets higher quality, but higher prices.

25 years ago, I would have said, buy Bridgeport, but keep an eye on Jet of Japan. Right now I think Taiwan made cast iron machinery through Enco is the best trade off between cost and quality for individual hobbyist. Sometime in the future, China made will become the best quality per cost deal.

"Turcite" (not turcite) is just a brand name. My understanding is that Turcite B is PTFE, and Turcite A or TA and TX or X are acetal-PTFE copolymer. If you have some other information, I'd like to hear it.

Both Turcite and Rulon are families of filled or reinforced PTFEs. I don't believe any of the flavors are straight Teflon. Both my mill and lathe have this stuff on the ways, though I don't know whether it's turcite or rulon or another brand. It's definitely not plain Teflon--it's much harder and more resistant to abrasion and gouging.

I've never seen any credible evidence that these materials last longer than a properly maintained traditional way, but they do make a noticeably improvement in the "feel" of the machine by reducing stiction.

Ned Simmons

The only information I *do* know is that pure PTFE cold-flows - a lot. It would be a poor choice for way sliders.

Jim

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