OT- 2nd Amendment IS an individual right-Officially

Not a California gun owner eh John? SKS Sporter is an example. Google is your friend.

Gunner

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"Get an FFL and you can legally buy and own very nearly anything. You must also go through the appropriate state licensing procedure but in the end I don't think that a persistent buyer would be denied. Is this not correct? A clear example of government "taking our guns away" is Australia. That isn't happening in the US and the only ones suggesting this be done are a small group on the very fringe."

Ed pointed out that the states have no interest if you meet the federal requirement an I will take his word for it.

Are your First Amendment rights, subject to licensing? Can you go and purchase a brand new MP-5? A case of grenades? Law Rocket? How about a simple bolt action .50 BMG in California?

Gunner

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, nonaddictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or the secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious or secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all.

May you have a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2005, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make the world great, and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith, political belief, choice of computer platform, or sexual preference of the wishee.

By accepting this greeting you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for herself or himself or others, is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is under warranty to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year, or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and the warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.

Don't know about the LAWS or grenades but you certainly can get an H&K MP-5 and I have had my eye on a .50 Desert Eagle for some time. If the dealer ever gets his head out I'll buy it.

Uh, then I either mistated something or you misunderstood. Many states have tighter restrictions on full-auto firearms (machine guns and true assault rifles, such as the AK-74 that you mention) than those of the federal government. Here in NJ, for example, you can't buy one. There are roughly

100 of them in private hands here, grandfathered in from the past, but no sales have been allowed for decades, either of new ones or old ones.

-- Ed Huntress

Of course, you fit neither catagory. And they are not inclusive. Lots of folks here prove that point quite well. Some here are very intelligent, but uneducated, others are educated beyond their intelligence.

Gunner

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, nonaddictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or the secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious or secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all.

May you have a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2005, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make the world great, and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith, political belief, choice of computer platform, or sexual preference of the wishee.

By accepting this greeting you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for herself or himself or others, is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is under warranty to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year, or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and the warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.

Exactly, I did say:

They actively collected and destroyed an entire class of fire arm. Crushed them all up. We grandfather things in. All manner of hardware changes hands in CA if you have the proper legal council and enough money.

OTOH, I may well have misunderstood you Ed and I wouldn't deny it. I just don't care very much about it and would think that with the big swing into the red that Gunner proclaims an amendment to the constitution would be no problemo for those that do care deeply. I can't wait to see a politician signing up for something that will specifically guarantee any citizen in the land the right to own a ZSU battery, SAW, or even an AK. I kinda think a real big percentage of the inhabitants would prefer that their neighbors not have a case of fragmentation grenades laying about either. Of course, it's OK for me but I have always thought the neighbor strange, and come to think of it I believe he finds me a bit odd as well. Guess I'll have to rough it without the H.E. around to defend myself. How is it again that grandma defends her one bedroom apartment with a grenade? A little hard on the porch light wouldn't you think?

This is the crux of much of the popular, if not the legal, argument. The question is whether the FFs, or even the popular opinion at the time, would have been based on such an absolute principle if there were commonly available such things as select-fire assault rifles, machine guns, shoulder-fired missiles, or even 10-round-capacity handguns. If a militiaman was required to show up with only 20 balls and 2 flints, I don't think they were anticipating spray-fire into restaurant crowds.

I'll let the 2nd Amendment holy rollers argue that one on their own. I think most of the country agrees with you, which is why, although a majority supports a RKBA, they also favor restrictions on the types of arms that can be owned.

Apparently even Gunner has his limits. I haven't heard a reply from him about why we can't own Davy Crockett missiles.

There may be a reason that he's skirting that particular issue. That possibility is very disquieting to me....

Jim

No, Im disagreeing with your interpretation.

Gunner

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

- John Stewart Mill

William Rehnquist, states, Contrary to the suggestion of amici curiae [friends of the court] that the Framers used this phrase 'simply to avoid [an] awkward rhetorical redundancy... 'the people' seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. The Preamble declares that the Constitution is ordained and established by 'the People of the United States.' The Second Amendment protects 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms,' and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments provide certain rights and powers are retained by and reserved to 'the people.'... While this textual exegesis is by no means conclusive, it suggests that 'the people' protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom the rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community"

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

- John Stewart Mill

Kneel and Bob.

Gunner

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

- John Stewart Mill

AK 74s are Title 2/Class III automatic weapons, and as such may not be owned by private parties in California (see below), but only by Title

2/Class 3 Federal dealers or those licensed to service the motion picture industry. ( Technically they may be owned by private parties in California, but they are so rarely allowed as to be a virtual ban. Stamping your feet and holding your breath does not work.) This is different than most other states which do allow possession with the appropriate Federal tax stamp, etc.

It may NOT be imported into the United States after 1984 except for use by authorized police or military units. No citizen of the US may purchase a fully automatic weapon manufactured after 1986

No this is not correct. An FFL will not allow you to purchase or posess an automatic weapon. Not in California, not in the US.

If you are refering to the semi-auto versions of the AK-74, they may also not be owned by private parties in California unless they had been previously registered by those parties prior to the ban reinforcement of 1989 and the later reformation of 1999. They may not be imported by people moving into the state. They may not be transfered to other parties within the state unless to a Assault Weapons Dealer (Not an FFL).

Tell that to the California Attorney General

Ed, while a nice fellow..tends to not know all that much about some subjects. This is one of them. It appears you are rather weak on the subject as well. Shrug

Gunner

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

- John Stewart Mill

The MP-5 is a full auto weapon. Unless you are a LEO or on active duty in the military and are using it in the line of duty, you may not possess it.

The 50 Eagle is nothing more than a self loading semi-automatic pistol.

One is legal in california for you to own, the other is not.

If the MP-5 was manufactured after 1989, you may not possess it either, unless you are a Title 2 dealer. Good luck getting that permit from the Feds and the State of California.

Gunner

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

- John Stewart Mill

If you see me with a dosimeter in my shirt pocket..its only an artifact I found out in the street. Really. Trust me on this.

Gunner

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

- John Stewart Mill

%%%% It would be a bio hazard.

Legally, without government permission? You may start up a newspaper or give a speech without government permission, those two rights being specifically guaranteed by the 1st Amendment. But since you need government permission (which is sometimes damned hard to get, if not downright impossible) to legally get an MP5 (a common military-type individual weapon), the right to keep and bear arms, a right guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment, has been infringed.

After getting government permission ...

-- Robert Sturgeon Summum ius summa inuria.

Pretty much what I said. It's all about money, influence, and a persons ( surogate's ) ability to jump through hoops. On the one hand you say they are completely banned and in the same sentence you then say they are allowed under certain conditions. The "class" of licensing you refer to poses a fairly onerous burden and as my offices were once next door to a bussiness that dealt in this stuff I am vaguely familiar with the physical conditions necessary to be licensed. Not something for your average Joe, I'll grant you that. If you were determined and had the resources, however, you could swing it and people do.

There always seems to be an exception.

Extremely, I haven't had the need to know. I mover to CA in the early 80's and nosed around enough then to keep myself legal. I was then and am now, and have no desire to run around like a fool waving hardware around to see if my attorney can successfully assert my right to do so in court.

Yes, Not only do you need permission but you have to ask nicely and with a giant wad of money in your lawyers hand. Of course that depends on what you hope to acquire. I don't think it's impossible - just difficult and expensive.