OT Fastow sentenced

Must be that Bizzaro Universe you live in. Ive never heard that.

Now.about Global Crossing.....

Gunner

"As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later convinces himself." David Friedman

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!! Keyboard condom Alert!!!!!

Gunner

"As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later convinces himself." David Friedman

As has been said many times..Bush indeed did inherit some real problems. Now arent you glad Bush is doing something about a problem covered up and instituted by Clinton and Algor?

Btw..where are your harsh words for those two..who let it all happen on their watch?

Gunner

"As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later convinces himself." David Friedman

Very Clintonesque, Gunner.

Can you describe the deregulation that lead to the problems, which did not just magically appear out of noplace?

Business has been clicking along for years, and then one day, Enron simply implodes all by itself? Nope. There were causes and they started with government slacking the ropes that prevented this sort of thing.

I'm sure you're gonna paint this as a right/left issue, but remember: when there's a potful of money to be made, party lines fly out the window. There were big contributions made to see that the coast was clear for the shenannigans.

Jim

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And this is OK with you?

You think that just because 'The Other Party' sold out your country's economy, it's just fine - indeed, laughable?

That makes you a prime moron, sir.

If you don't care to understand just *why* the deregulation allowed Lay Fastow Skilling et al to do what they did, and who got paid off to get the dereg accomplished in the first place, fine. But don't thumb you nose at anyone who points out the facts.

Jim

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Here's a low estimate:

The figure 23 billion is mentioned about halfway down the page.

Here's a high estimate:

The figure $71 billion is prominently displayed.

In fact, some of the ploys used to steal the money were complex enough that one can only estimate the amount stolen. The $50 billion number was pretty common in the California press at the time.

Al Moore

You're here in California, where we were on the wrong end of the debacle. The proponents of the "free market" were pretty vocal in their support for Enron. More so elsewhere than here, however, for obvious reasons...

Al Moore

And exactly which administration was it that was meeting regularly with Ken Lay while refusing to meet with CA's elected representatives as our bills went up and up?

I think what you're seeing here is a case of "Thieves fall out" rather than any virtuous prosecution of the evildoers.

Al Moore

Now Alan. Let's not be like Gunner and point fingers here. I am sure that you will agree with me that who *ever* concocted or benefitted from the scam, should be punished. If they should happen to be members of clinton's staff, then I say have at them. Likewise if any of the texans were involved in the deregulation push, and got a potful of money from the Enronians, then they should likewise be run up the flagpole.

The interesting thing about this stuff is that folks are getting their feet held to the fire, and if one thing is for certain, the rats will roll over on their buddies to get a break. So whatever connections to the political arena will become painfully apparent when Lay et al get ratted out by their associates.

So the question remains, how come this thing did not happen more *often*? What was it that kept the 'free market' from getting into all that risk insuring and market manipulation, up until Enron? How come those guys could just waltz in and steal - er, I mean, *purchase* the keys to the vault?

Jim

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Why Gunner. Is this what they call 'ad hominim?' I'm suprised at you.

Jim

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I should have said "reputable source". Sorry.

JTMcC.

I can't tell who is on which side here but the California energy crisis was basically a market manipulation that took place entirely on the Bush administration's watch. THe energy brokers took advantage of a piss poor California energy policy and the California Energy commission begged the US DOE to enforce the rules but the Bush appointees at DOE refused to interfere with the "free market" until they realized that the rest of the country knew it was a scam and they were looking like political stooges.

This administration is not going to do anything to make their big corporate donors toe the line until they get caught red handed and then only to cover their a$$es.

The only thing you left out was payback time for California for carrying Dole during the election.

The big question now is..were the supporters all in favor of Enrons sucess, while not knowing about its criminal behavior? If so..its reasonable and understandable.

If the supporters were in favor of Enrons criminal behavior..it would be not reasonable.

Gunner

" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age... I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity, bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity, fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We *assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation to keep the State out of the church business, we've destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*. Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives

Hummm then it wasnt a Democrat Governor and energy commision that signed all those long term contracts?

Seems to me that the Feds were keeping their hands off a state issue. That sounds mighty reasonable.

Im sure you would like the Feds to administer the toilet paper contract for the state buildings too, right?

Seems the people of California see things a bit differently than you. They recalled the bastard Grey Davis for just cause.

Gunner

" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age... I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity, bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity, fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We *assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation to keep the State out of the church business, we've destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*. Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives

Ken and Co also met regularly with the Democratic California commissions. And it was a Dem that signed the long term energy contracts, even dispute the recommendations of his staff.

The Feds had no real reason to be meddling in a state issue. An issue handled by the Dems btw.

Gunner

" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age... I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity, bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity, fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We *assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation to keep the State out of the church business, we've destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*. Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives

Yes, of course. Didnt recognize it?

Why, cause you generally debate well without ad hominims, so I dont reply in kind? I cant be nice to you ALL the time..folks would think I was getting touchy feely in my old age.

Gunner

" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age... I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity, bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity, fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We *assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation to keep the State out of the church business, we've destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*. Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives

Well heck, it sure sounded reasonable to Kenny Boy, too! That's why he purchased the priviledge of keeping the federal regulators off their backs.

Maybe he gave a million dollars to Hillary Clinton for it, or maybe he contributed to the Bush family campaigns. Who knows. Sure didn't work out too well over the long run though, for all those folks who had their savings invested in that company.

Of course it's true you can't run a ponzi scheme without eedjuts, so you could just say, "investor beware" and leave it at that. That's free market. I am a firm believer that publicly traded companies should be absolutely free to misrepresent their profit and debt when they put out their annual report, and that executive management should be absolutely free to lie through their teeth at all times. Because that's what we pretty much had at the time.

Interesting to note (and has not been discussed here) how rapidly, and quietly, a *number* of large companies (including a blue one) did a quick re-shuffle of the books (typically lowering profit statements or including debt not othewise shown) after the Enron thing blew up.

My guess is that everyone was taking advantage of the regulatory environment and sweetening the pot a bit. The enron folk simply got greedy - caught up in the moment as it were.

Jim

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And the hor$e is already out of the barn, as well.

Jim

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