proper way to use a lock washer?

When using a nut, lock washer and bolt, should you also use a flat washer between the object and the lock washer? I have seen it done
a million times that way but it seems the flat washer defeats the purpose of the lock washer. I assume the lock washer is there to dig in a bit to the object and the nut to keep it from loosening. The flat washer seems like it would allow the lock washer to rotate without digging in to the object.
Anyone know?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washer_%28hardware%29#Spring_and_locking_washers
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On 6/6/2013 10:51 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

Wikipedia ruins everything. I was expecting a big argument to start.
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Well, I'd say it depends...for instance, a soft washer with a large diameter (fender washer) likely would provide more friction against the material being bolted and so I have to at least partially disagree with wiki on this..
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It depends on the need.
If you are locking a nut to the base metal it is locking to - use s star / split / double star / spring etc then the nut or a washer and a nut. The washer spreads the presser across the nut and allows it to rotate freely.
If you are trying to lock the nut and the thread then you are trying to put side pressure on the nut....
Sometimes it is two nuts together with a washer.
Many uses.
Martin
On 6/6/2013 10:03 PM, asdfasdf wrote:

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On 06/06/2013 08:03 PM, asdfasdf wrote:

Despite what wiki says, I frequently use (and see used) a split lock washer between a nut/bolt head and a flat washer. Even though it isn't going to "bite" into the object being held or the nut/bolt head, it still provides a longitudinal force to help keep it from becoming unfastened.
Jon
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I would disagree. After the washer is collapsed and the bolt is tensioned there is no added force to the bolt frm the washer. Just more space between the bolt head and the work surface.
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You are WRONG!
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Would you be happy if I quoted Aristotle, quoted the Bible, and then called you a bad name? I'd sure not want you to leave the room unsatisfied, and all. . Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washer_%28hardware%29#Spring_and_locking_was hers

Wikipedia ruins everything. I was expecting a big argument to start.
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On 6/7/2013 6:26 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

That's the rcm way! I was hoping someone would do my thread justice.

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The Book of Gunner (in the Old Testament; one of the lost books) relates: 4. And at the early moment of dawn, on the sixth day of the week. The chariots were heard in the distance. My best look out came back into camp, and reported that the enemy had amassed 500 chariots with warriors and boys to assist. 5. My look outs from the high towers reported that behind the chariots were amazing multitudes of busty and nubile women, both nobles and wenches, and girls too young to have been married off to the warriors of the opposing realm. And they had heard that I, Gunner, was legenday and unstoppable in the bedroom, after having bilateral angio venoplasty paid for by the tax payers of California, to treat my years of self inflicted cigar smoking and drinking of whiskey. 6. I called heartily with booming and resonant voice (only coughing a couple times account of the cigar) to my trumpeter, to rally my men, to sound the charge. We had only 200 chariots with warriors, boys, and small number of busty women, the remainder of the women were slumbering in exhaustion after the bedroom epic drama of last night. 7. My chariots went into battle, and the fight was extreme. In the heat of the battle, the opposing chariots wheels all came off, as if on signal. Mine rallied and fought to the end, as I had used my lathe, and hydraulic stamping press to generate suitably sized lock washers, to hold the wheels on. (Can be seen, item #2814, on 55 tools blogspot, hosted by Rob H.)
Aristotole say (or was it Confucious) man without lock washer have loose nuts.
You misspelled your screen name, asshat. . Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . .
On 6/7/2013 6:26 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

That's the rcm way! I was hoping someone would do my thread justice.
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On Sat, 8 Jun 2013 08:30:18 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"

were heard in the distance. My best look out came back into camp, and reported that the enemy had amassed 500 chariots with warriors and boys to assist.

amazing multitudes of busty and nubile women, both nobles and wenches, and girls too young to have been married off to the warriors of the opposing realm. And they had heard that I, Gunner, was legenday and unstoppable in the bedroom, after having bilateral angio venoplasty paid for by the tax payers of California, to treat my years of self inflicted cigar smoking and drinking of whiskey.

times account of the cigar) to my trumpeter, to rally my men, to sound the charge. We had only 200 chariots with warriors, boys, and small number of busty women, the remainder of the women were slumbering in exhaustion after the bedroom epic drama of last night.

battle, the opposing chariots wheels all came off, as if on signal. Mine rallied and fought to the end, as I had used my lathe, and hydraulic stamping press to generate suitably sized lock washers, to hold the wheels on. (Can be seen, item #2814, on 55 tools blogspot, hosted by Rob H.)

ROFLMAO!
Though I dont smoke cigars or drink booze..otherwise it was funny as hell.
--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?
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Which lubricant should be used on thread, when tightning a bolt, nut, and lock washer? I'd think that something with WD-40 would be used. Everyone knows that WD-40 was designed as a lubricant. Right, asshat? . Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . .
On 6/7/2013 6:26 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

That's the rcm way! I was hoping someone would do my thread justice.
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On Thu, 06 Jun 2013 19:51:22 -0700, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

29#Spring_and_locking_washers
It may be worth a more extensive search. A mechanical engineer I know, whose a very sharp guy, told me that someone did a study and determined that split washers work because they act as springs that keep the tension on the threads in one direction.
Wikipedia is not always a reliable source.
--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
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On 6/7/2013 11:35 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:

Then edit the page so that it is more reliable...
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On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 12:39:44 -0500, Richard wrote:

I'm not a reliable enough source, either. I was advising the OP to look around and make up his own mind, not to believe what I said without question.
If I needed to know I'd do a literature search -- starting, I admit, by looking up my old mechanical engineering colleague, to see if he could remember where he saw the note (I think it was NASA tech briefs. NASA was doing all sorts of studies in that vein for a while).
--
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There are numerous views regarding the in/effectiveness of split style lockwashers.
One sure way to be certain is to use the proper Loctite or similar thread locking product. Another option is to use nylock or other types of self-locking nuts.. although this may be more costly than threadlocking products, and some types are considered OTU one-time-use only.
--
WB
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On Thursday, June 6, 2013 10:34:32 PM UTC-4, asdfasdf wrote:

Some simply consider split ring washers to be the work of the devil.
I found this looking for a more extensive set of videos of bolts loosening, and the test rig used.
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/junkertesthelicalspringwasher.htm
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/helicalspringwashers.htm
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/vibloose.htm
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On 6/7/2013 1:39 PM, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote: ...

...
I didn't watch the rest; I notice they didn't say anything about the torque applied on the test. Didn't appear to me it was more than just "snugged down" rather than really torqued, but who's to know--they cleverly didn't the applicator so can't even judge by looking the amount of effort or size of ratchet, etc. While it may have been optical delusion, looked to me like the bolt turned as well which wouldn't indicate being very tight.
I don't have any scientific evidence but 50+ yr practical use on farm indicates to me they serve a useful purpose.
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I was impressed by this test at first, but then I realized looking at the graph ( http://www.boltscience.com/pages/helicalspringwashers.htm ) that the major difference occurs only after the bolt is already too loose. The plots diverge only after the bolt has already lost half its preload. They really need to concentrate on the very first part of the curve where the bolt starts to loosen. If you look closely, there is some indication one curve is much steeper than the other at the start, but it is impossible to tell which it is. Maybe they need to dial back the shaking a bit to be able to measure that part of the curve better.
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