If you would read the original post before opening your pie hole then next time you might not look like such a goddamned fool.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus
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Other than that, you can figure that for all practical purposes, your flourescents will be serving double duty as strip heaters--( not necessarily a good thing in summer but...) just calculate the total wattage of your lighting buss and go ahead and turn them on in advance--if you're insulated well enough then it could even be that's all you really even need.
"Stormin Mormon" fired this volley in news:Vv6Mq.3297$ snipped-for-privacy@news.usenetserver.com:
that's not what he said, Stormy. He was responding to a post where electric or propane heating was the primary source, and the lamps (albeit low output) would be _adding_ to the heat gain.
That's true if the humidity is high, but if you monitor and control it temperature swings are less of a problem. Condensation won't form unless the iron is at or below the dew point. My shop goes as high as 80% in summer yet bare mild steel doesn't rust. 12L14 needs a spray of rust inhibitor.
that's not what he said, Stormy. He was responding to a post where electric or propane heating was the primary source, and the lamps (albeit low output) would be _adding_ to the heat gain.
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:jdqtp7$sb4$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:
Not _quite_ true.
It's true that most of the heat stays near the ceiling, because most of it is conducted away from the housing by convection. However... (It's SCIENCE!) ALL objects warmer than their surrounds also radiate in the infrared. (Hint... infrared IS "heat". Radiation is one of the three ways heat moves)
When I told my Ph.D. boss about my 4-layer insulated windows he calculated the radiant heat flux through them in his head. It was essentially irrelevant above freezing, considering the 10-micron infrared behavior of older iron-bearing window glass. However I made curtain liners from aluminized cloth just for good measure.
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I had an undergrad summer research grant that involved quite a lot of infrared spectroscopy using NaCl and KBr optics and sample holders. The wavelengths I've worked with in long-wave infrared optics and microwave electronics nearly meet.
If you want to actually see the heat losses and find any bad spots get in contact with a local fire department and have them bring out their TIC and actually look it over. That will show you a LOT of info quick.
In 1978, I bought a used 25,000 btu wall mounted, through the wall vent and air intake propane furnace. I paid about $30 at the time for brand new exhaust intake piping. I heated my 20 X 20 foot and 20 X 24 foot shops with it until 1992 when we built a new house and it was still running fine in west central Wisconsin. I had pretty well insulated walls; 8" of fiberglass, one inch of foam in walls and 10" of fiberglass and one inch of foam in ceilings. I put one inch of foam 2 feet deep around the concrete floors all the way around. No trouble at all getting the place up to 70 degrees plus at -30F. I replaced in with a new 35,000 btu unit in 1992, The new one is a Williams wall mounted furnace with a vertical chimney/fresh air intake, which also has an adjustable rear vent to heat a new breezeway. Again, it works just fine- no concerns at all with condensation, even though I keep the temp down to about 60 degrees. I built a woodshop in another part of that building about 6 years ago and added another furnace of the same type. I'd do it again. I know that one poster said he didn't have condensation problems with an unvented propane heater, but I certainly had it before I did the above, and I worked part time in a place that used that form of heat and it sure did have condensation.
I had IR heat in one of the outside shops I worked and and absolutely abhored it. The cars and my tools would get too hot to touch while a minimum of half my body stayed cold. Only line-of-sight body parts warmed up. Ugh! Bad tech, IMHO. Closed shops and forced air are the only way to go.
I'm spending my time celebrating the first day of the year washing my affected areas with Tecnu and then applying Calagel to reduce the itch of the poison oak I got into a few days ago. What I thought was a liana of wisteria turned out to be poison oak. No leaves, just a finger-thick vine going up through the lilac into the tree I was cutting back. The tree was courtesy of my neighbor, who refused to have her worker cut her own tree.
-- Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air? -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Larry Jaques fired this volley in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Ick! I used to get poison oak/ivy REAL bad until I went through a desensitization program (oral tablets). If I just brushed up against it, I'd have it all over my body by two days hence.
Now, I get a little irritation at the actual site of contact, and once in a while two or three tiny blisters, but never "area coverage" -- it does not spread like it used to do.
Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting. Outside temperatures average around 36-38°F through the winter months. I don't require a warmer temperature for working. Can always place a small propane heater next to me if I'm going to stand in one place for a long time.
All suggestions greatly appreciated. BTW, ceiling will have 8 four-foot four-lamp fluorescent lights.
Thanks, Ivan Vegvary
One more vote for the mini split AC/heat pump. A second choice would be a vented Modine Hat Dawg propane heater. 30,000 BTU will be too much, but it is the smallest they make. The nice part of a permanant AC or heater is that you can set the temperature and forget it. They are safe to run and you don't need to worry about them burning the place down like a portable heater might.
On the real cheap a couple of portable electric heaters would do ok, but with your electric rates and the safely concerns they would not be a great choice. Greg O
I strongly advise against a propane (or any other fossil fuel) heater. These are mostly combinations of hydrogen and carbon. The carbon just gives CO2 -- or if the combustion is not very complete, CO
-- carbon monoxide, which you don't want to be breathing. (Add a CO detector if you *must* use the fuel approach.)
However -- the other combustion product is water vapor, which it is pouring into a room full of cold metal tools. The result will be condensation and rust.
Usually, the main trick is keeping the tools a bit warmer than the air -- something like an incandescent lamp in the castings to generate heat, which will reduce condensation. (At least, for as long as you can still buy incandescent lamps. There are times when you
*want* the inefficiency and the resulting heat. :-)
Electric heat will not generate moisture -- and you might discover that you would like a little more humidity -- but your machine tools would not. :-)
Hmm ... there are similar fixtures of radiant heat sources -- rig it up so you can turn on only the one directly above where you are working to keep the energy cost down a bit.
I agree, that fossil fuels do contain hydrogen and carbon. Hey, we could coin a phrase. How about we call them hydrocarbons, for short? You know, that's kind of catchy.
My residence has a 90% plus efficiency furnace, that uses natural gas for fuel. In the winter, it's so dry I use about a gallon (often more) per day of water in my humidifier. To keep it comfortable for me. Otherwise, it would be painfully dry. You say that fuel furnaces over humidify? Mine dumps the humidity out the flue, and the humidity is of no use for me.
The OP may be able to get a vented heater of some sort, that will vent the flue gasses out, keep the place warm, and keep the place dry.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus
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I strongly advise against a propane (or any other fossil fuel) heater. These are mostly combinations of hydrogen and carbon. The carbon just gives CO2 -- or if the combustion is not very complete, CO
-- carbon monoxide, which you don't want to be breathing. (Add a CO detector if you *must* use the fuel approach.)
However -- the other combustion product is water vapor, which it is pouring into a room full of cold metal tools. The result will be condensation and rust.
Usually, the main trick is keeping the tools a bit warmer than the air -- something like an incandescent lamp in the castings to generate heat, which will reduce condensation. (At least, for as long as you can still buy incandescent lamps. There are times when you
*want* the inefficiency and the resulting heat. :-)
Electric heat will not generate moisture -- and you might discover that you would like a little more humidity -- but your machine tools would not. :-)
Hmm ... there are similar fixtures of radiant heat sources -- rig it up so you can turn on only the one directly above where you are working to keep the energy cost down a bit.
I rolled in it at one point with a girl at a campfire outing. We went off into the woods and had fun. She called the next day with it all over, inside and out. (poor girl!) I told her I had a couple of tiny bumps on my left forearm, that's it. I felt sorry for her and very, very happy/lucky for myself.
Once I got up to Oregon, I thought I was still immune to it until I cut a 3' stick of it down and put it in a bag, wearing latex gloves. Big problem, even though I took care, knowing what it was. I've had it
4 times up here already. Gaaack! Nasty, but usually less than 10 sq. in. of it at a time.
Do you take the tabs just before ivy season every year, or what? I'm checking it out now, maybe order some tabs.
I'm going to buy some jewelweed poison ivy soap today as it still itches somewhat. The liana scratched me and it's a nasty sore there with a palm sized oozing inflamation trail up my arm which was about
1/4" tall. It's less than 1/8" today and only the sore itches, which means there's probably some urushiol still in there. Farkin' weed!
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