Shop heat question

On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:36:27 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"


I had IR heat in one of the outside shops I worked and and absolutely abhored it. The cars and my tools would get too hot to touch while a minimum of half my body stayed cold. Only line-of-sight body parts warmed up. Ugh! Bad tech, IMHO. Closed shops and forced air are the only way to go.
I'm spending my time celebrating the first day of the year washing my affected areas with Tecnu and then applying Calagel to reduce the itch of the poison oak I got into a few days ago. What I thought was a liana of wisteria turned out to be poison oak. No leaves, just a finger-thick vine going up through the lilac into the tree I was cutting back. The tree was courtesy of my neighbor, who refused to have her worker cut her own tree.
-- Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air… -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Ick! I used to get poison oak/ivy REAL bad until I went through a desensitization program (oral tablets). If I just brushed up against it, I'd have it all over my body by two days hence.
Now, I get a little irritation at the actual site of contact, and once in a while two or three tiny blisters, but never "area coverage" -- it does not spread like it used to do.
I can live - even comfortably - with that.
LLoyd
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On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:09:11 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

I rolled in it at one point with a girl at a campfire outing. We went off into the woods and had fun. She called the next day with it all over, inside and out. (poor girl!) I told her I had a couple of tiny bumps on my left forearm, that's it. I felt sorry for her and very, very happy/lucky for myself.
Once I got up to Oregon, I thought I was still immune to it until I cut a 3' stick of it down and put it in a bag, wearing latex gloves. Big problem, even though I took care, knowing what it was. I've had it 4 times up here already. Gaaack! Nasty, but usually less than 10 sq. in. of it at a time.

Do you take the tabs just before ivy season every year, or what? I'm checking it out now, maybe order some tabs.
I'm going to buy some jewelweed poison ivy soap today as it still itches somewhat. The liana scratched me and it's a nasty sore there with a palm sized oozing inflamation trail up my arm which was about 1/4" tall. It's less than 1/8" today and only the sore itches, which means there's probably some urushiol still in there. Farkin' weed!
-- Win first, Fight later.
--martial principle of the Samurai
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I took one four or five week regimen of it almost 30 years ago, and although my sensitivity slowly increases with time (not being exposed very often) that was enough.
It's a progressive-dose thing... 1/4 tab a day for a period, then half, up to two tabs a day... then done for decades of immunity.
LLoyd
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On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 09:06:36 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

Wow, impressive. Do you remember the name of the product?
-- In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. -- Albert Camus
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Yes. Aqua Ivy.
Lloyd
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On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 09:55:28 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

http://goo.gl/BYphQ Um, -how- long ago did you say you tried these, sir? <g> Note the date on that newspaper ad.
(Amazon.com product link shortened) I'll try the Hylands.
-- In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. -- Albert Camus
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Yeah, that's probably when they came out. I remember them on the shelves until the early 80s.
LLoyd
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Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
[Aqua Ivy]

Here's an abstract of a 1959 article on the testing of Aqua Ivy, with the conclusion that it was quite effective: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0021870759900826
But then somebody else found it to be "hazardous", on anecdotal basis: http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/170/12/1409.extract which prompted a rebuttal: http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/171/5/592.2 and a counter rebuttal: http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/171/5/592.3.short
"Hazardous" must have prevailed over "effective" because I can't find it today.
Bob
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On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:06:55 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

Ivy, REAL roman candles, freedom, honest politicians) go away and all the crap (rust, Thompson's Waterseal, Minwhacked finishes, AIDS, dishonest politicians, Rap, Myron Florin music) stay with us forEVER? <deeper sigh>
-- In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. -- Albert Camus
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Bummer.
The entire west slope of my property as well as most of the south side is pretty much covered in it, but so far it's never really bothered me.
Fairly common along the lower Columbia.
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EEEEKKK!!! Don't confuse him with facts!!!!!
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .

Trouble is, they don't radiate infrared and the heated air from the ballast stays near the ceiling.
jsw
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Do LDS folks _actually_ get drunk, Stormy?
'Seems you are...
LLoyd
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On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 20:38:31 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

Please don't feed the jesus freak trolls (or quote their sigs.)
-- Win first, Fight later.
--martial principle of the Samurai
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On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 18:30:35 -0800 (PST), Ivan Vegvary
foot ceiling fully insulated. All surfaces are 1/2" oriented strand board, along with a couple of double insulated windows looking into the bigger shop. There is 4" insulation in walls and 6" in ceiling. Concrete floor with vinyl tile. Power available for heating would be either electricity or propane.
Darn, for just a few bucks more, you could have framed it with tuba sixes (or double-stud walls) and needed even less heat to maintain it. I hope all your wiring is surface mounted, keeping heat loss from the inner building lower. Seal every corner, crack, and seam, top and bottom. The better the insulation and the lower the in/ex-filtration, the less HVAC system you need.

I'd go with electric instead.
I don't have the book for calculations. Manual J, "Residential Load Calculation," published by the Air Conditioning Contractors of America (ACCA), is the recommended method for use in the United States according to the gummint. They cost only $140!
http://www.mrhvac.com/free-hvac-stuff/free-heat-gain-and-loss-calculator / With my guessing at generic data, it looks like a 11654.392 BTUH loss. You could call a local HVAC guy and ask what HVAC system you need, or just get a 4kW heater http://goo.gl/OoxQp from bLowes. Add a box fan to help destratify. It's large enough to warrant a full HVAC system if your pockets are deep enough.

I was paging through a woodworking book last night and the author had mentioned usint an additional switched 2-lamp 4' fluor over each machine. He powered the machine and the lamp from the switch. That couldn't be done with 240v single or 3-phase, but it's an idea.
(Pat Warner's _Getting the Very Best from Your Router_ book)
-- Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air… -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Yep, definitely caulk all seams, unfinished joints or penetrations of the interior surfaces. Caulking is the most cost effective energy reducing product that any DIY type can use. The return on the investment can be huge when applied every where it's needed. If your eardrums pop when you open/close doors, ya done real good. That doesn't mean you'll suffocate if you spend too much time in that space, as long as a group isn't cooped up in there to evade the cullers/zombies.
It will be advantageous to start caulking during the framing stages and follow-up with the semi-finished interior and/or added as the finishing is being completed.
Losing (paid for) heated air and having it replaced with cold air is where massive amounts of heating (and visey-versey cooling) energy is often wasted.
--
WB
.........


"Larry Jaques" < snipped-for-privacy@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message
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Ivan Vegvary wrote:

All surfaces are 1/2" oriented strand board, along with a couple of double insulated windows looking into the bigger shop.
There is 4" insulation in walls and 6" in ceiling.
That's a LONG way from "fully insulated". Keeping the heat in is far cheaper than adding more heat.
Concrete floor with vinyl tile.
If the floor is cold, this is also a BIG loss. Ground under my house stays at 55F in winter. That would be a net gain for a 50F space. If yours is colder, could be a BIG loss.
Power available for heating would
be either electricity or propane.

the winter months. I don't require a warmer temperature for working. Can always place a small propane heater
next to me if I'm going to stand in one place for a long time.
Unvented propane in a tight space will have water everywhere. Everything will rust and mold will run wild. Lower humidity is better than warmer temperature.

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-Finishing up framing a 13'x36' shop area within my large shop. Walls and 8 foot ceiling fully insulated. All surfaces are 1/2" -oriented strand board, along with a couple of double insulated windows looking into the bigger shop. There is 4" insulation in walls -and 6" in ceiling. Concrete floor with vinyl tile. Power available for heating would be either electricity or propane.
-Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting. Outside temperatures average around 36-38°F through the winter -months. I don't require a warmer temperature for working. Can always place a small propane heater next to me if I'm going to -stand in one place for a long time.
-All suggestions greatly appreciated. BTW, ceiling will have 8 four-foot four-lamp fluorescent lights.
-Thanks, Ivan Vegvary
My house with 1970 electric heat insulation does that now. It has a polyetylene vapor barrier under the sheetrock, an extra layer of attic and north-side wall insulation I added, and tightly sealed doors and windows upstairs. I left the basement as is to leak in fresh air for the stove, which isn't needed if the daytime high reaches ~ 40F. Right now four indoor humidity sensors (grouped together for testing) read 48%, 51%, 54% and 57%. The temperature readouts match better, the three Oregon Scientifics are within 0.1 degree F and the old Radio Shack is 0.7F lower.
If you can justify it a small non-self-defrosting refrigerator would add maybe 100W of heat and somewhat decrease the humidity if the door leaks a little.
jsw
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In article

The (presumably uninsulated) concrete floor extending into the unheated area (and likely straight to the outside at the edges) is going to move a lot of heat (or $) over time.
Nearly all replies have assumed (probably on the basis of "place a small propane heater next to me") unvented propane, which is a terrible idea. Use a portable electric in that case. Sealed combustion (aka sealed burner - pipe brings in outside air, pipe takes out exhaust gas, inside air never meets the flame) propane heat is probably (check local price for propane and electricity) more cost-effective than straight electric resistance heat. Depending what your lows are, and how long you have them for, a heat pump might be more cost-effective than propane, if you get a good one (high COP) and it does not have to turn into a straight electric resistance heater too often due to the outside temp being too low for it work as a heat pump.
The mini-split systems offer heat pump and A/C on a small and affordable scale...
You may also want to get an air-air heat exchanger so you can have some ventilation without wasting too much heat.
The "British-units" (more US-units these days) analysis (rounded up)
13x36 ceiling, 6" R19 (optimistic - the insulation is, the framing isn't) 468 square feet, divide by 19 = 25 BTU/hr/degF
13x36 floor, R1 or so to ground which is a bit warmer than air. R hard to figure sideways to cold shop and to exterior air, but not good. 468 square feet, divide by 1 = 468 BTU/hr/degF
13x8x2 wall, R11, (optimistic) 208 square feet divide by 11 = 19 BTU/hr/degF
36x8x2 wall R11 (optimistic) 576 square feet, divide by 11 = 53 BTU/hr/degF
Subtract square footage of windows/doors from walls, figure those at R3 if they are decent, R1 or 2 if they are not decent.
Ignoring windows/doors and the optimism of ignoring framing: 97 BTU/hr/degF for the walls and ceiling 468 BTU/hr/degF for the floor.
For 50F shop at 36F exterior, the top only consumes 1358 BTU/hr. Not really true - those R3 (at best) windows and door will eat (comarative to thier size) a lot of heat. Say you have 8 square feet of window and a 7x3 or 21 sq foot door - that adds 10 BTU/hr/degF or 140 BTU/hr - or 3 times that for poor windows and an interior-type door - to your load. And floor, even assuming a 40F ground temp eats 4680 BTU/hr - or 2340 if you call the ground 45F (and neither is accounting for the hard-to-figure but significant effect of heating the surrounding shop and air by conduction through the slab.)
If you fudged that (rounding up to account for some of the unknowns) you might call it 7000 BTU/hr at the low end of a good fudge - to get 14 degrees above outside ambient with no air exchange. If you want to maintain 50 degrees, rather than 14 degrees above exterior you'll need more heat (the average should give you a cost idea for the whole winter, the min temp is needed for "how big should the heater be to keep 50F on the worst day" and you get the average back by it turning off part of the time on warmer days with the thermostat.)
Add in air exchange - 3744 cubic feet divide by 13.9 to get pounds of air, multiply by specific heat of air (0.24) to get 65 BTU/hr/DegF for 1 air change per hour, then cut that down by how good you think you sealed it or multiply by how much ventilation to need to carry off smoke, and cut down by the efficiency your air-to-air heat exchange claims if using one. 910 BTU/hr for a 14F differential and 1ACH (normal construction.) Really tight construction can get down to 0.1 ACH, but can also be too tight to live with (not enough ventilation, unless forced ventilation with or without an air-to-air heat exchanger is used.)
Call it (average) 8000 BTU/hour (still optimistic, but..) which is an average of 2.35 KW/hr or 5640KW for 100 days (gets from now to early April) - $846 at my price of 15 cents per KWh.
For a heat pump, divide by the COP - 3 is typical - $282 - but for any time the outside temp is below the heat pump's operating range, you can't do that, so it may be more (or a lot more, as that when it's cold and you need more heat then.)
For propane, 92.5 KBTU/gallon * efficiency of furnace (less than 1 - 0.8 typical, 0.93 expensive) 260 gallons for 100 days with 80% efficient furnace, what's your price per gallon?
These are almost certainly "inaccurate in practice" numbers, but they are accurate enough for the purposes of comparison and rough guesstimation of the cost of operation. The cheapest installed cost is usually electric resistance heat, but it's generally the most expensive to run.
Per this estimate, at 15cents/KWh and with an 80% efficient propane burner, $3.25/gallon is the breakeven between resistance heat and propane. If it's near that, the lack of fuel and open flame may favor resistance heat anyway. Burning down the shop sucks.
From what I recall of mini-split system prices, one would probably pay off in 2-3 years, and be money in the bank thereafter - unless it's too cold for too long. Your price for electricity will, of course, affect the time it would take for that to be true.

Pick the right ballast and it's easily done with 240 - and presumably one phase of the 3-phase, too. Don't know that I'd like that, though - I would want the light when the machine was not yet running and after it shut off, but that's me. Just put a light switch there by the machine for that light...
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.
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Thanks Ecnerwal, what a thoughtful reply!
I will use your data analysis (adjusted for window and door sizes) and make an appropriate decision.
BTW, right now I'm paying $2.48/gallon for propane. House electrical rate is $0.11/KWH Shop electrical rate is $0.32/KWH
Shop rate is high because of low usage. My last bill was $24.55 most of which was for Basic standby ($16) taxes etc. House bill was $84 for the month of October. I can't combine the two for a lower rate since I enjoy the 3 phase power delivered to the shop. I suppose I could run the shop power back up to the house and get a combined single bill saving me about $18 per month.
Thanks again for all of your effort to help me!!
Ivan Vegvary
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