Can a Syncrowave 250 run from a 60A circuit

I have a 60A circuit that would be very convenient to hook up to my Syncrowave 250. It says that it requires 105A. I believe that this would be if I use it at the highest setting, like carbon arc gouging or welding aluminum, of which I do neither. All I do is stick and TIG welding under 150 amps. Am I potentially looking for trouble? I do not think so, but thought I would check.

The circuit is properly fused.

i
Reply to
Ignoramus21023
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See p. 17.

With the Power Factor Correction cap (C1) at

230 V and 60 Hz single phase, the machine draws no more than 48 A, full tilt.

Without the cap, it'll draw 74 A.

--Winston

Reply to
Winston

Absolutely. I ran my Syncrowave 250 from a 30A circuit for a year and a half before I redid my shop power. I never had a single issue welding the 14ga steel tube I usually work with, with the Syncro set for 150A or so. BTW, a Syncro 250 will draw well over 105A on the input if you run stick mode with arc control on full.

Reply to
Pete C.

So without power factor correction it will be drawing a bunch of current even when you are not welding. But you are probably okay using it to weld steel. The factory power factor correction uses a capacitor with a fairly high voltage rating and it connects to a winding on the transformer that puts out a fairly high voltage. But you can connect capacitors across the power lines and not worry about the capacitors being connected to a higher voltage. Just means you will need more capacitance.

If you do not have a good source of capacitors, you can get them from Herbach and Rademan.

=20 Dan

Reply to
dcaster

Dan, Give another look at that page. It sure looks to me like the non-PFC unit idles at 4A (230V, NEMA Class II) and maxes at 92A input. The PFC version looks like it pulls 66A in either state.

BobH

Reply to
BobH

I have had a Syncrowave 250 for about 15 years. I do not have the power factor correction caps so I have fed mine a 90 amp circuit and never tripped the breaker, even on heavy aluminum, 310 amps output, with the fan going full tilt. On a 60 amp breaker I popped it all the time.

As long as you keep your amps low you can get away with it.

Reply to
Ernie Leimkuhler

I think you can get away with it, unless the machine has a HUGE phase correction bank. I am now running my Lincoln Square Wave TIG 300 on a 100 A breaker, but it will run on a 70 A breaker, at least at reasonable output currents. It has trouble below 70 A due to the huge power factor caps in it.

Trouble? It can't do any worse than tripping the breaker on you.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

I'm not sure on that. If you are running high amps and trip he breaker and your cooler is plugged into the Syncro's outlet you loose coolant circulation as well. If I were running this way *and* trying to do heavy work I'd make sure the cooler was on a separate circuit.

Reply to
Pete C.

I have to admit I had not looked at the manual when I posted. But now that I am looking I can not find anything on the idle amps. Exactly where are you finding that data?

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

That's closer to what I recall reading in the manual, however I will note that those specs are based in the Syncro's rated 250A 40% duty cycle output, not at the max panel amps of 310 or the max arc control amps which will go over 400A (at less than 40% duty cycle).

Reply to
Pete C.

Boy, for a guy who claims to know as much as you do about factory wiring, you've got a pretty bad setup. Your lights should NEVER be on the same circuit(s) as your tools. The last thing you want when something screws up with a machine tool, hand tools or welder is for the lights to go out, leaving you bleeding, electrocuted or burned, sitting in the dark. It's a recipe for disaster.

But you knew that.

Reply to
rangerssuck

The version I looked at on the web last night had it on page 16 and the section is marked "3-1. Specifications", there were two tables detailing different operating configurations. Each table has a row for non-PFC and PFG machines. The non-pfc row has two entries, with the the operating condition on top and the idle condition below, marked with a single asterix. There is a note in the tables indicating the asterix correspnds to "While Idling". The PFC row has a single number with no distinction between idling and operating.

BobH

Reply to
BobH

You are absolutely right. And now I am confused. I have done some power factor correction on both welders and motors, and never saw any case in which the current while idle was lower with no correction. Good to learn something new. Now I just have to figure out how they did that.

Iggy, if you ever have time would you check and see what the current draw is on your welder at idle. Inquiring minds want to know.

=20 Dan

Reply to
dcaster

Well, most of the water-cooled torches are rated for 350 Amps, he won't get anywhere NEAR that on a 60 A breaker, so in this case, I can't see much trouble. I mean, you also lose post-flow shielding, too, but having the weld stop unexpectedly is going to mess up the welding anyway.

I've never run over 150 A although my welder is capable of maxing out my torch. I am getting into slightly bigger workpieces, though.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

The non-power factor corrected machines just are't doing much but running the cooling fan at idle, so no current required. My Syncrowave has a thermostat on the fan so if I have not been cranking on it, the fan does not even run.

I have not done a rigorous analysis of the power factor corrected setup, but connecting capacitors directly across the AC line seems to me like it would pull a lot of current. The phase angle on the current is going to be close to 90 degrees leading at idle so the real power will be very low. When you strike an arc, the current through the stabilizing inductor and the transformer is going to be trailing, so the sum should look resistive. From a handwavy analysis, it seems reasonable to me.

BobH

Reply to
BobH

To me the non power factor corrected machine has a bunch of magnetizing current going through the primary of the transformer. Connecting capacitors directly across the line causes a current which is 180 degrees out of phase with the magnetizing current. So those two currents cancel. ( assuming the amount of capacitance is correct ).

The next time my grandson is here I will try to make some measurements of the current drawn while he welds. Not easy to do by ones self.

=20 Dan

Reply to
dcaster

I have the same situation, no easy way to make measurements while welding. I am also a little reluctant to hook expensive test equipment up in a system with the HF active.

Is your machine power factor corrected? I looked at getting the power factor correction, but the high idle current convinced me to get the standard machine.

Happy New Year, BobH

Reply to
BobH

I have a buzz boxt that I added some oil filled capacitors to reduce the idle current. It is not a Miller machine. I have not measured the current while welding, but measured the current while idling . And added capacitors to reduce the idling current. The welder is a buzz box with a iron core that gets moved to short out the flux going from the primary to the secondary. It is an AC machine only and has no stabilizing choke. If you are interested in how I determined how much capacitance to add, I can try to do a write up that can be understood. And look to see how much I ended up adding.

The best place to buy oil filled caps that I know of in Herbach and Rademan.

=20 Dan

Reply to
dcaster

AC clamp Amp probe, connected to a good DMM in peak recording mode placed on the input side to the welder. HF should *not* be on the AC line side, I'm pretty sure the designers of the machine put some effort into ensuring it doesn't get there.

Power factor correction is pointless for home use, it is only of value in industrial settings with peak metered power.

Reply to
Pete C.

Would the power correction caps help any to limit the inrush on startup? If so then you could get away with a smaller breaker if your wiring is not ideal, IE a 60-amp circuit.

MikeB

Reply to
BQ340

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