Can a Syncrowave 250 run from a 60A circuit

I have a 60A circuit that would be very convenient to hook up to my Syncrowave 250. It says that it requires 105A. I believe that this
would be if I use it at the highest setting, like carbon arc gouging or welding aluminum, of which I do neither. All I do is stick and TIG welding under 150 amps. Am I potentially looking for trouble? I do not think so, but thought I would check.
The circuit is properly fused.
i
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Ignoramus21023 wrote:

http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o353u_mil.pdf
See p. 17.
With the Power Factor Correction cap (C1) at 230 V and 60 Hz single phase, the machine draws no more than 48 A, full tilt.
Without the cap, it'll draw 74 A.
--Winston
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So without power factor correction it will be drawing a bunch of current even when you are not welding. But you are probably okay using it to weld steel. The factory power factor correction uses a capacitor with a fairly high voltage rating and it connects to a winding on the transformer that puts out a fairly high voltage. But you can connect capacitors across the power lines and not worry about the capacitors being connected to a higher voltage. Just means you will need more capacitance.
If you do not have a good source of capacitors, you can get them from Herbach and Rademan.
Dan
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On 12/31/2011 6:29 PM, snipped-for-privacy@krl.org wrote:

Dan, Give another look at that page. It sure looks to me like the non-PFC unit idles at 4A (230V, NEMA Class II) and maxes at 92A input. The PFC version looks like it pulls 66A in either state.
BobH
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On Dec 31 2011, 10:19 pm, BobH

I have to admit I had not looked at the manual when I posted. But now that I am looking I can not find anything on the idle amps. Exactly where are you finding that data?
Dan
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On 1/1/2012 6:32 AM, snipped-for-privacy@krl.org wrote:

The version I looked at on the web last night had it on page 16 and the section is marked "3-1. Specifications", there were two tables detailing different operating configurations. Each table has a row for non-PFC and PFG machines. The non-pfc row has two entries, with the the operating condition on top and the idle condition below, marked with a single asterix. There is a note in the tables indicating the asterix correspnds to "While Idling". The PFC row has a single number with no distinction between idling and operating.
BobH
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wrote:

You are absolutely right. And now I am confused. I have done some power factor correction on both welders and motors, and never saw any case in which the current while idle was lower with no correction. Good to learn something new. Now I just have to figure out how they did that.
Iggy, if you ever have time would you check and see what the current draw is on your welder at idle. Inquiring minds want to know.
Dan
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On 1/1/2012 11:31 AM, snipped-for-privacy@krl.org wrote:

The non-power factor corrected machines just are't doing much but running the cooling fan at idle, so no current required. My Syncrowave has a thermostat on the fan so if I have not been cranking on it, the fan does not even run.
I have not done a rigorous analysis of the power factor corrected setup, but connecting capacitors directly across the AC line seems to me like it would pull a lot of current. The phase angle on the current is going to be close to 90 degrees leading at idle so the real power will be very low. When you strike an arc, the current through the stabilizing inductor and the transformer is going to be trailing, so the sum should look resistive. From a handwavy analysis, it seems reasonable to me.
BobH
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wrote:

To me the non power factor corrected machine has a bunch of magnetizing current going through the primary of the transformer. Connecting capacitors directly across the line causes a current which is 180 degrees out of phase with the magnetizing current. So those two currents cancel. ( assuming the amount of capacitance is correct ).
The next time my grandson is here I will try to make some measurements of the current drawn while he welds. Not easy to do by ones self.
Dan
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On 1/1/2012 5:17 PM, snipped-for-privacy@krl.org wrote:

I have the same situation, no easy way to make measurements while welding. I am also a little reluctant to hook expensive test equipment up in a system with the HF active.
Is your machine power factor corrected? I looked at getting the power factor correction, but the high idle current convinced me to get the standard machine.
Happy New Year, BobH
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wrote:

I have a buzz boxt that I added some oil filled capacitors to reduce the idle current. It is not a Miller machine. I have not measured the current while welding, but measured the current while idling . And added capacitors to reduce the idling current. The welder is a buzz box with a iron core that gets moved to short out the flux going from the primary to the secondary. It is an AC machine only and has no stabilizing choke. If you are interested in how I determined how much capacitance to add, I can try to do a write up that can be understood. And look to see how much I ended up adding.
The best place to buy oil filled caps that I know of in Herbach and Rademan.
Dan
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BobH wrote:

AC clamp Amp probe, connected to a good DMM in peak recording mode placed on the input side to the welder. HF should *not* be on the AC line side, I'm pretty sure the designers of the machine put some effort into ensuring it doesn't get there.

Power factor correction is pointless for home use, it is only of value in industrial settings with peak metered power.
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On 1/2/2012 10:05 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Would the power correction caps help any to limit the inrush on startup? If so then you could get away with a smaller breaker if your wiring is not ideal, IE a 60-amp circuit.
MikeB
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BQ340 wrote:

I never had a problem on a 30A circuit, and I did quite a bit of welding that way running up to 150A or so output. If anything PFC would increase the startup surge when charging the caps.
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The current is AC. Since the capacitor current is out of phase with the inductive current, power factor correction will reduce the current. There really is no start up surge with welders. Light bulbs have a start up surge as the resistance of a hot filament in much higher than the resistance when the filament is cold.
Dan
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    Inverter style welders have a start-up surge, when the supply capacitors are charged at first plug-in or turn-on.
    Certainly the typical buzz box would not have a start-up surge.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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On 1/2/2012 8:05 AM, Pete C. wrote:

The Syncrowave has outputs on the 14 pin control connector to allow you to read voltage and current in the weld circuit. That is what I was worried about the HF on. That and ground interactions between the DVM, PC (for recording), and the weld circuit.
I was interested in the power factor correction because the max current is noticeably lower. The high idle current and cost made me change my mind.
BobH
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Really depends on why one uses power factor correction. I did it for a couple of reasons. The first was using a branch circuit that was not as big as it should have been. The second was so I could take the welder out of the basement and up to the the driveway. This meant using a 75 or 100 foot extension cord. So reducing the current was important. Well I could have run out and bought a # 6 or #8 extension cord, but power factor correction was a lot cheaper.
In addition to the welder, I have a drill press with a 1.5 hp motor that pops the circuit breaker when I have run it without some power factor correction caps. With power factor correction no problem. Without PFC I have to reset the breaker about half the time. It is on a 120 volt 15 amp branch and adding PFC is a lot easier than running a 20 amp circuit. I think it is cheaper too.
Dan
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BobH wrote:

That's closer to what I recall reading in the manual, however I will note that those specs are based in the Syncro's rated 250A 40% duty cycle output, not at the max panel amps of 310 or the max arc control amps which will go over 400A (at less than 40% duty cycle).
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Ignoramus21023 wrote:

Absolutely. I ran my Syncrowave 250 from a 30A circuit for a year and a half before I redid my shop power. I never had a single issue welding the 14ga steel tube I usually work with, with the Syncro set for 150A or so. BTW, a Syncro 250 will draw well over 105A on the input if you run stick mode with arc control on full.
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