steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

Greetings
I have a small bench top rolling mill. Works fin as long as I
don't over do it.
But, the rollers are flat. I'd like to put a custom pattern (or
two) on thin brass / copper stock which will require something.
Option A is to punch the pattern into a piece of flat steel and
roll it through. Not a bad idea, but kind of limited to lengths of
out put. (Some of this will be for decorating wooden boxes).
Plan B would be to put the pattern into a roller so I can just
crank out as many feet as I have material. "It will all get used
sometime."
The issue for custom rollers is of course, what is the best grade
of steel for the rollers, and heat treating it after engraving. (Hmmm
'I just had an idea forming in my brain...')
The rollers are going to be about 2 to 3 inches long and about
"this" diameter. (I really should unpack it and see what the actual
sizes are...)
Now, where I'm going to find the machine to do this is a complete
second question.
tschus
pyotr
Reply to
pyotr filipivich
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Realistically you have two choices. A CNC 4th axis mill, or hand engrave it. You might be able to do simple knurl patterns with a lathe, but I don't think that's really what you are looking for.
I am sure somebody has better options, but my hammer is a CNC mill with a 4th axis rotab and center. Your job looks like a nail to me.
I expect OD need not be exact since your machine has to be adjustable. You would just need to get it in the right range.
As to metal choice. The best option would be a good tough tool steel for longest life. S7 maybe, but 4140 HT (RC30(+/-)ish) would last a while for softer metal rolling, and it can be hardened and tempered in the RC50+ range. It would last a modestly long while, and its easier to work with in my opinion than some of the really tough tool steels.
Of course if you are trying to roll form a hard metal all bets are off.
Reply to
Bob La Londe
Did you ask this in another group? Facebook? Home Shop Machinist?
I could have sworn I saw nearly this same question somewhere else very recently.
Reply to
Bob La Londe
4140 HT (RC30(+/-)ish) would last a while for softer metal rolling, and it can be hardened and tempered in the RC50+ range. It would last a modestly long while, and its easier to work with in my opinion than some of the really tough tool steels.
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4140 HT is easy enough to machine with HSS. Do you have hands-on experience hardening and tempering it?
One night in TIG class I got frustrated with burn-through and took to piling up beads as sculpture and text. It worked better than I expected and with a little practice I could make smooth rounded raised lines. Someone with more artistic skill might be able to create raised rolling dies that way. I think the edges could be refined with a curved riffling file with a safe edge ground on the bottom.
Your customer Keith Snyder says hi.
jsw
Reply to
Jim Wilkins
Did you ask this in another group? Facebook? Home Shop Machinist?
I could have sworn I saw nearly this same question somewhere else very recently.
The thread was "rolling mills, custom patterns and making wire into strips"
Reply to
Jim Wilkins
I quit using HSS except when I need a tool I can't buy or make out of carbide. I recently made a flexure out of 4140HT tool (I have a lot of it left over from a job) to hold a insert type parting blade. I fought with it for a while with some HSS tooling, and then I said screw this SHIT (yes I said SHIT in all caps, picked up an Altin Coated carbide mill and just ripped through it with a great finish. I was almost maxing out the power feed and still getting a great finish. Same thing on the lathe. If I don't have a carbide tool the right geometry I make one. Everything cuts better.
Nothing that required a high precision final dimension. Most folks will tell you to quench in oil, but thick heavy pieces can quench in water. Then I just toss it in the toaster over I use for powder coating small parts and let it bake for a while. I don't recall the temperature or time. I always look it up. One thing I did find s that its hard (for me anyway) to surface grind 4140 that has any level or not annealed hardness and not have it warp and twist. I really need to setup coolant on my surface grinder and see if that helps.
Now that's an interesting thought. Most of your ER70S wire is harder than mild steel, and if you wanted to get crazy maybe you could use hard facing wire.
Mine? I just took a quick look and I see several Keiths, but no Snyders. Back when I was contracting I had a few Snyder's as customers, but I quit contracting December 31st 2016. I'd have to go fire up the old computer up front to look anybody up from back then. Haven't turned that computer on in nearly five years. Not since I filed my last income taxes on that business. Now there is a thing that sometimes (often) happens. I get people who have gotten frustrated trying to contact a mold maker by the name of Shawn Collins. They want him to do a custom job or modify a stock design, and it turns out for some stupid reason they think Bob La Londe sounds just like Shawn Collins. They will swear they have a bunch of molds I made. One guy on Facebook the other day showed me pictures. I didn't make a single one of the molds he showed me. It happens at least once or twice a week. I've had it happen several times in a day. One day I was out fishing with a buddy of mine telling him about it and my cell phone rang. It took me five minutes to get the guy on the phone to stop talking long enough for me to tell him I didn't make the mold he was asking about. Back in the 80s Rick Springfield wrote the song "Bruce." I understand completely.
Reply to
Bob La Londe
I quit using HSS except when I need a tool I can't buy or make out of carbide. I recently made a flexure out of 4140HT tool (I have a lot of it left over from a job) to hold a insert type parting blade. I fought with it for a while with some HSS tooling, and then I said screw this SHIT (yes I said SHIT in all caps, picked up an Altin Coated carbide mill and just ripped through it with a great finish. I was almost maxing out the power feed and still getting a great finish. Same thing on the lathe. If I don't have a carbide tool the right geometry I make one. Everything cuts better.
----------------------- I can mill with carbide but it chips too easily on my worn 1965 lathe, and I can't resharpen it on my surface grinder as easily as HSS. HSS is still practical for one-off jobs on small manual machine tools, i.e home hobby shops. When I suggest HSS I imply that I've found it an acceptable minimum to cut steel of some hardness, not that it's better than carbide. I make cutters from hardened tool steel too, but the difficulty of correctly tempering it and low allowable cutting rate mean I don't usually suggest it. -----------------------
Nothing that required a high precision final dimension. Most folks will tell you to quench in oil, but thick heavy pieces can quench in water. Then I just toss it in the toaster over I use for powder coating small parts and let it bake for a while.
----------------------- That's what the blacksmith/knife maker told me to do. I had acquired a small industrial tube oven so I set it up with exhaust pipe tube and a thermocouple heat controller to temper with better control, at the 350-375F he recommended for 5160 car spring steel. The color is a very faint yellow. -----------------------
I don't recall the temperature or time. I always look it up. One thing I did find s that its hard (for me anyway) to surface grind 4140 that has any level or not annealed hardness and not have it warp and twist. I really need to setup coolant on my surface grinder and see if that helps.
----------------------- Thanks, that is useful advice. -----------------------
Now that's an interesting thought. Most of your ER70S wire is harder than mild steel, and if you wanted to get crazy maybe you could use hard facing wire.
----------------------- I inherited a splitting maul that had been used to smooth an uneven granite step and rebuilt the missing cutting edge with either ER70S or 7014 (?). As-welded it was a good fileable hardness for a wood cutting impact tool. Damaging the maul was preferable to refusing grandmother's demands. -----------------------
----------------------- In southern NH. I may have mis-remembered the last name. He spoke very highly of your fishing lure molds but said the soft rubber compound he uses wouldn't do what I want. He works in a small hardware store that survived because it carries odd stuff the big boxes don't. -----------------------
Reply to
Jim Wilkins
Sorry , that was a bit harsh, but I get really tired of the number of people telling folks to use HSS or that HSS is better. About the only thing I really found HSS was better at was harsh interrupted turning. It will hammer away without shattering. HSS is relatively cheap and comes in convenient blanks for making tools, but I can touch up a piece of carbide on the diamond wheel, and touch up the edge on diamond bench stone. I can make good HSS tools, but even back when I was still using the mini lathe I found I liked carbide inserts better. I just had to use the smallest ones. Sure you can't really use their full capability, but they do work. I did spend a lot of time chasing parts with HSS, because everybody said so...
As to grinding. I kind of wished I had not wasted my money on the surface grinder. Sure I use it occasionally, but the D-Bit style Tool & Cutter has proven to be a far more useful piece of machinery and it cost less. I should have bought it first. Mine came with a white Aluminum oxide cup wheel and a diamond cup wheel. It uses 5C collets and has a couple other attachments. It didn't come with a tracer for sharpening helix tools, but I could make one. Its not like a wire finger is a big deal. Since I do mostly CNC work day to day I don't want a bunch of normal looking resharpened end mills of unknown size laying around anyway. The one thing I picked up to go with it was a couple thin diamond wheels for slicing off end mills. It serves two purposes. I can turn a mill with broken tips into a usable side mill very quickly. Just lop off the end (at a slight angle to relieve the bottom). No more end cutting capability, but its still useful. The other is simply cutting off the flutes quickly to make a blank. Some guys leave the flutes on and just make their tool on the other end, but I am paranoid about damaging tool holders and collets with those flutes still on the tool. One tip I picked up from Steffan Gottswinter's videos was that while it is a semi precision grinding tool you can free hand tiny little features with it too. Recently when making a ten degree dovetail cutter I put a very slight radius on the tip free hand.
I did recently (few months ago) make a wrench for a guy who owns a hardware store. I don't recall his name. Of course I don't remember the name (off hand) of everybody who ever bought a mold, but usually they sound familiar. It takes seconds to do an email search back to as far as mid 2017.
Reply to
Bob La Londe
As to grinding. I kind of wished I had not wasted my money on the surface grinder. Sure I use it occasionally, but the D-Bit style Tool & Cutter has proven to be a far more useful piece of machinery and it cost less. I should have bought it first. Mine came with a white Aluminum oxide cup wheel and a diamond cup wheel. It uses 5C collets and has a couple other attachments. It didn't come with a tracer for sharpening helix tools, but I could make one. Its not like a wire finger is a big deal. Since I do mostly CNC work day to day I don't want a bunch of normal looking resharpened end mills of unknown size laying around anyway. The one thing I picked up to go with it was a couple thin diamond wheels for slicing off end mills. It serves two purposes. I can turn a mill with broken tips into a usable side mill very quickly. Just lop off the end (at a slight angle to relieve the bottom). No more end cutting capability, but its still useful. The other is simply cutting off the flutes quickly to make a blank. Some guys leave the flutes on and just make their tool on the other end, but I am paranoid about damaging tool holders and collets with those flutes still on the tool. One tip I picked up from Steffan Gottswinter's videos was that while it is a semi precision grinding tool you can free hand tiny little features with it too. Recently when making a ten degree dovetail cutter I put a very slight radius on the tip free hand.
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My surface grinder was intended to double as a cutter grinder. The head swivels for cup and saucer wheels. As a machine with too many joints it's more adaptable than precise.
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found the swivel table with dead centers for it, made the missing base, and have sharpened some large taps. I have fixtures to grind the ends and sides of end mills and circular horizontal milling cutters, and compound angles on lathe bits. I think they were available second-hand because they aren't good enough for CNC, but they are OK for a hobby shop.
Once I fit the taper attachment to the lathe and finish some spindle taper adapters (like Sopko 00815) for the grinder I'll be able to mount the diamond wheels I have on it and grind carbide. That'll likely be after we achieve permanent world peace.
Reply to
Jim Wilkins
Bob La Londe snipped-for-privacy@none.com on Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:03:05 -0700 typed >> >>> Greetings
Nope, but I wouldn't be surprise.
I have talked with a friend who would like a custom roller for silver work.
Reply to
pyotr filipivich
"Jim Wilkins" snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com on Wed, 16 Mar 2022 21:50:16 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Oooh, cool. Now all I need to do is learn TIG ... B-)
I doubt I could set that up in the apartment though. Bummer. > >Your customer Keith Snyder says hi. > >jsw
Reply to
pyotr filipivich
Bob La Londe snipped-for-privacy@none.com on Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:00:39 -0700 typed >> Greetings
Brass, copper, aluminum
Reply to
pyotr filipivich
I doubt I could set that up in the apartment though. Bummer. -----------------
You could learn the old low-tech methods.
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Reply to
Jim Wilkins
I doubt I could set that up in the apartment though. Bummer. -----------------
You could learn the old low-tech methods.
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My first untutored silversmithing project, in an Army craft shop in Heidelberg, was a hollow silver ball pierced with filed patterns. I had enough general metalworking experience that it wasn't difficult to figure out how.
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The ball that the vise mounts on isn't hard to turn on a lathe if you don't need it perfectly smooth. I made some from cast iron dumbbells by writing a spreadsheet that calculated the sphere's X and Y coordinates (X^2 + Y^2 = R^2) and having it print tables of them with decreasing radius and step sizes, which I followed on the lathe, repeating until the steps were small enough to file. Decreasing the radius fixes undercutting errors. I worked quickly and rather crudely on the large roughing steps and took more care as they approached a smooth sphere. They are ball and socket pivots for a hoist frame that helped move a 2100 Lb log onto my sawmill last year.
I used the same method this afternoon to make a tapered bushing.
Reply to
Jim Wilkins
The first thing I might do is ask the manufacturer of the roller if they have any embossing die rollers available. I might search for groups where others might have the same or similar roller.
I think there are two approaches I might consider.
One is a single roller for embossing your detail, and a second roller made of a hard rubber or foam that gives just enough to allow your pattern to be imprinted.
My other thought would certainly be more expensive and have design and material thickness limitations so I'll dismiss it for now.
Reply to
Bob La Londe
if the pieces are not large it might also be practical to use a straight press with flat embossing die as opposed to a roller.
Reply to
Bob La Londe
The first thing I might do is ask the manufacturer of the roller if they have any embossing die rollers available. I might search for groups where others might have the same or similar roller.
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Reply to
Jim Wilkins
Bob La Londe snipped-for-privacy@none.com on Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:53:52 -0700 typed >> Bob La Londe snipped-for-privacy@none.com on Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:00:39 -0700
Hmmm ... "But I have a Roller!"
I have considered 'engraving' a flat plate and using that. Which still leaves me with the issue of making the pattern on the flat plate. I've also thought about using a flat plate in a "tracer" set up, but that is way more complicated. Than what? dunno, but I'm sure it is. I am reminded of a computer program I wrote decades ago. Took about 3 weeks (and a quarter's computer time). It probably would have taken me less time to run the calculations by hand, but I now have (had) a program to run those numbers anytime I wanted. Same here: making the pattern, how ever I do it, will probably take longer than if I just do it by hand. OTOH, I can literally crank out feet of the fancy banding once done.
Reply to
pyotr filipivich
"Jim Wilkins" snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com on Thu, 17 Mar 2022 18:40:28 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Cool.
Reply to
pyotr filipivich
Bob La Londe snipped-for-privacy@none.com on Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:51:55 -0700 typed >> Bob La Londe snipped-for-privacy@none.com on Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:03:05 -0700
Snip
An idea too. However ... both of us are looking for a pattern we can't find. And I'm not sure what make and model this little mill is. Ya reckon maybe if I unpack it, that would help?
I realized that whatever pattern I come up with, I'm going to have to reverse it on what ever I use. Conceptually, I want to take a thin strip and "impress" a pattern of "raised" shapes (stars, half moons, squares, circles, etc). As I think about it, I could just roll the strip of brass thin, then hammer the patterns into the strip by hand, standard sheet metal kind of work. "But I'm a machinist ... "
"It's a simple procedure involving lasers ..."
Reply to
pyotr filipivich

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