The Silver Bull Market

"Robert James" wrote in message
Your irrelevant Winnie, and you have lost your argument. Silver was fixed
during the depression by the Pittman Act, just as gold was fixed. The Silver Purchase Act of 1934 monetized silver once again, as per 1792 when the Mint Act defined the constitutional dollar as 371.25 grains (24.056 g) of silver. You are not debating or debunking me, you are simply ignoring the facts and rambling nonsense because you can not admit you are wrong!
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On 13 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to Ed Huntress's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration,

Excellently put, Ed Huntress. I was hoping for a more thorough conversation on the issue then I was getting.
I always assumed that it was Peace and Morgan dollars that were exchangeable in surrender of silver certificates. As such I believed a one dollar silver certificate could be returned for only 0.77344 troy ounce.
The interesting story is that Britian needed to keep it's promise to India that British government banknotes could be converted into silver to the bearer upon demand. The Germans convinced India to cash in their chips, so to speak... and the Brits did not have that silver!
While I realise the 1918 act was pre-depression, I was not referring to the Pittman London Silver Amendment, which if I recall was designed to halt hoarding of silver by the public.
Though was not the Pittman London Silver Amendment added to the Second (1938) Agricultural Adjustment Act, and NOT the The Silver Purchase Act that came out one year later - like you said? Again, I could be worng about that as I am just trying to remember my history, here... though I think I am correct in this instance.
I was indeed referring to the original Pittman act. As that was the price paid to miners per ounce of fine silver, silver would likely have never been mined at the free market value. A free market value which in itself was artificially low due only to government subsidies that were creating a supply equilibrium at that $1/oz. In other words, buyers back then would have got a nice discount since the government covered much of the mining costs.
For example the original Pittman act paid miners $1 per ounce, of which they otherwise could not economically mine silver. Though granted you are correct, this is also the same price that the US sold silver to the UK - the reason for doing so was to meet demand for the British banknotes all ready in circulation.
Had this "exchange value" and subsidized payments not been available, the demand for silver very well might have been greater then the supply. In a real free market this would increase the price of silver until it reached a value that miners could afford to produce...
In fact had the Pittman act not *fixed* the price that *mining companies would be paid*, as well as melting silver dollars to meet demand... It could be possible silver would have jumped well past $1/oz. With the cashing in of UK notes and demand not being met, if Americans caught wind of this - they too could be demanding silver in fear of their own currency.
Though gold was different as you noted, silver too was nationalized in much the same way in 1934. The Silver Purchase Act of 1934 is of course a whole other ball game, which nationalized domestic silver stocks - somewhat like it did gold, though only in order for it's self to hoard large amounts of silver in West Point. Not in gold's case to make it appear Fed notes had full gold backing.
When the government does fix a price, whether directly or through subsidizing the cost to continue production. It get's harder to estimate the true free market price of anything in fiat currency, especially several years afterwords.
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On 14 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to Robert James's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration,

Sorry I ment FIRST Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1933. As I now Googled it, under the "Thomas Amendment".
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"Robert James" wrote in message

Excellently put, Ed Huntress. I was hoping for a more thorough conversation on the issue then I was getting.
I always assumed that it was Peace and Morgan dollars that were exchangeable in surrender of silver certificates. As such I believed a one dollar silver certificate could be returned for only 0.77344 troy ounce.
The interesting story is that Britian needed to keep it's promise to India that British government banknotes could be converted into silver to the bearer upon demand. The Germans convinced India to cash in their chips, so to speak... and the Brits did not have that silver!
While I realise the 1918 act was pre-depression, I was not referring to the Pittman London Silver Amendment, which if I recall was designed to halt hoarding of silver by the public.
Though was not the Pittman London Silver Amendment added to the Second (1938) Agricultural Adjustment Act, and NOT the The Silver Purchase Act that came out one year later - like you said? Again, I could be worng about that as I am just trying to remember my history, here... though I think I am correct in this instance.
I was indeed referring to the original Pittman act. As that was the price paid to miners per ounce of fine silver, silver would likely have never been mined at the free market value. A free market value which in itself was artificially low due only to government subsidies that were creating a supply equilibrium at that $1/oz. In other words, buyers back then would have got a nice discount since the government covered much of the mining costs.
For example the original Pittman act paid miners $1 per ounce, of which they otherwise could not economically mine silver. Though granted you are correct, this is also the same price that the US sold silver to the UK - the reason for doing so was to meet demand for the British banknotes all ready in circulation.
Had this "exchange value" and subsidized payments not been available, the demand for silver very well might have been greater then the supply. In a real free market this would increase the price of silver until it reached a value that miners could afford to produce...
In fact had the Pittman act not *fixed* the price that *mining companies would be paid*, as well as melting silver dollars to meet demand... It could be possible silver would have jumped well past $1/oz. With the cashing in of UK notes and demand not being met, if Americans caught wind of this - they too could be demanding silver in fear of their own currency.
Though gold was different as you noted, silver too was nationalized in much the same way in 1934. The Silver Purchase Act of 1934 is of course a whole other ball game, which nationalized domestic silver stocks - somewhat like it did gold, though only in order for it's self to hoard large amounts of silver in West Point. Not in gold's case to make it appear Fed notes had full gold backing.
When the government does fix a price, whether directly or through subsidizing the cost to continue production. It get's harder to estimate the true free market price of anything in fiat currency, especially several years afterwords.
=========================================================The question there is what is the "price," free market or otherwise, being measured by? If not a fiat currency, is it to be measured by its value in precious metal? If so, why? With the ups and downs in the markets, your entire economy becomes a slave to unknown future events in the metals markets.
My interest in this whole issue stems from trying to answer for myself the question of "what is money?", which interested me a great deal right after we went off the silver standard in 1971 and the economy did not collapse. First, I learned from Adam Smith that measuring a country's wealth in terms of precious metals was absurd. He told us that in 1776, although we were slow to learn.
Next, the machinations that occurred during the 1930s, which you're discussing here, showed that it was folly to base the value of currencies on precious metals, as well. It was a good idea in the Middle Ages; not so good during the Industrial Revolution.
By the end of the Depression, it was clear that the entire metals basis for currency was an international shell game. The prices of those metals was itself a fiat enterprise and a zero-sum game in which whole segments of an economy came out a winner or a loser with a legislated shift in currency value, and a stroke of a pen. Letting markets determine the prices had the same result, and markets don't care who winds up a pauper. Far from being a stabilizing force, it was more destabilizing than not.
The underlying fact is, that since 500 B.C., we've discovered new forms of shiny objects that take a nice polish. Perhaps we should be on a chromium standard. We could build altars out of hub caps. Our currency could be chromed lug nuts. d8-)
Beyond that, I've lost interest in the history of specie-based currencies. We could try cockle shells again, but with the efficiency with which we can strip the ocean of living creatures today, we'd be hell on the cockles, and then where would we be?
--
Ed Huntress


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On 14 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to Ed Huntress's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration,

Benjamin Franklin, one of history's greatest men was a firm believer... and creator of paper currency. In fact he argued that the real reason for the revolutionary war, was not taxes - but the fact the British did not accept Colonial Script in payment of taxes, and tried to ban the creation of it. For his efforts with America's first fiat currency, he is honored on the $100 Fed note.
That being said when Continental currency was used to fund the war, the bubble burst and paper became useless. Thus the use of silver as money, after independence. China, the very first creators of paper currency banned it for several hundreds of years for these very same reasons - using silver instead.
Andrew Jackson, one of history's other great men (for a white slave owning manifest destinist) knew the dangers of having private banks issue the currency of a nation, out of thin air - with no backing of gold or silver. The Second Bank of the United States was an early version of the Fed that was brought down by Jackson during his presidency. He is, very ironically honored on the $20 Fed note.
May I add that since the issuance of Federal Reserve Notes, that unknown shareholders in a private bank control and issue monetary debt at interest, and that the Sixteenth Amendment (enacted in the same year as the Fed) creates a tax which all citizens must bear to pay off that interest...
For example, instead of the treasury issuing a bond to the Fed, and the Fed charging debt to the nation for the creation of it's printed currency... The treasury could issue it's own interest free currency - even if it is also backed by nothing. The Bank of Canada was doing this until the early 1970s when the international community under the demands of banks forced Canada off issuing government currency... coincidentally around the same time of the Nixon Shock, totalling ending the gold standard.
So "what is money?", as you basically said what-ever two people are willing to use as a means of trade for a product or service. Me??? I like Canadian Silver Maple Leaf bullion coins, though true - even I value them at spot price in current Canadian dollars when accepting 'em in trade! I prefer it's long term value, which I consider to be - again in the long term, more trustworthy then private bank issued debt.
Here is somthing you will not hear from any other hard money buff: Why does man have an evolutionary physiological value for rare shiny things like precious metals and gems? Because any man could bring back meat for the tribe. Yet the easiest way of winning the sexyist cavebabe to mate with was to present them with what women always love... rare shiny things that needlessly waste alot of a man's time, effort and toil. ;-)
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On 14 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to Ed Huntress's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration,

O' no, I totally agree that a precious metals stardard whould be a horrible system to go back too. As you mentioned, for one thing there is not enough metals to go around. Also issuing certificates as money - allegedly backed by phyiscal metals in some vault never did work. It is too easy to lie and print certificates for metals that do not exist, use a fractional reserve system that will not handle a run, or simply refuse to honor the IOU on demand when claimed by the bearer.
Most of the world's gold is too tightly held in old vaults, and based on it's value hard to trade. At this second gold is trading at $42.00 US dollars per gram, that is an **extremely, extremely** small speck that can be easily misplaced. Imagine all those pennies you lost in a lifetime, and think of something a fraction of the size and thinkness... worth a few hours wages.
Silver has been, will continue to be and NEEDS to be depleted by industry. Over half of the world's above ground supply has been irrevocably lost since the Coinage Act of 1965. This reason combined with the fact all debt based paper currency will, by design depreciate in value over time. It's one of the top reasons why since QE there is a distrust in the system. The worst thing that can happen to any currency that has no backing is for it's users to loose trust.
Since the central banks can not in this world of free money raise interest rates too quickly without seeing large defaults, with the fact the only major customer of bonds is now the government themselves... I don't see the percentage of physical that is sold as bullion investment flooding back on the market anytime soon.
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"Robert James" wrote in message

O' no, I totally agree that a precious metals stardard whould be a horrible system to go back too. As you mentioned, for one thing there is not enough metals to go around. Also issuing certificates as money - allegedly backed by phyiscal metals in some vault never did work. It is too easy to lie and print certificates for metals that do not exist, use a fractional reserve system that will not handle a run, or simply refuse to honor the IOU on demand when claimed by the bearer.
Most of the world's gold is too tightly held in old vaults, and based on it's value hard to trade. At this second gold is trading at $42.00 US dollars per gram, that is an **extremely, extremely** small speck that can be easily misplaced. Imagine all those pennies you lost in a lifetime, and think of something a fraction of the size and thinkness... worth a few hours wages.
Silver has been, will continue to be and NEEDS to be depleted by industry. Over half of the world's above ground supply has been irrevocably lost since the Coinage Act of 1965. This reason combined with the fact all debt based paper currency will, by design depreciate in value over time. It's one of the top reasons why since QE there is a distrust in the system. The worst thing that can happen to any currency that has no backing is for it's users to loose trust.
Since the central banks can not in this world of free money raise interest rates too quickly without seeing large defaults, with the fact the only major customer of bonds is now the government themselves... I don't see the percentage of physical that is sold as bullion investment flooding back on the market anytime soon.
========================================================[Ed]
'Sounds right to me.
--
Ed Huntress


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On 14 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to Ed Huntress's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration,

Hay, I maybe in my mid-20's and while I may lack the wiseness of age, even I realize that the current monetary system (a temporary band-aid since Tricky Dickie basicly admitted they ain't got no gold) is on life support...
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http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB120951522912254575
"HONIARA, Solomon Islands -- Forget the euro and the yen. In this South Pacific archipelago, people are pouring their savings into another appreciating currency: dolphin teeth."
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On 15 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to PrecisionmachinisT's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration,

Fascinating! My great-great-great-great-grandfather got this nice bit of land called Canada for only a few coloured wampum shells. ;)
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message

Those who had shirts lost them in the collapse of the previous currency, gold-lipped pearl oyster shells. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinctada_maxima
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"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

Those who had shirts lost them in the collapse of the previous currency, gold-lipped pearl oyster shells. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinctada_maxima
============================================================Another financial manipulation by the Rockefellers, no doubt.
Oysters Rockefeller:
"Melt butter in a skillet. Saute the garlic for 2 minutes to infuse the butter. Place the bread crumbs in a mixing bowl and add half the garlic butter, set aside. To the remaining garlic butter in the skillet, add shallots and spinach, cook for 3 minutes until the spinach wilts....
...Spoon 1 heaping teaspoon of the spinach mixture on each oyster followed by a spoonful of the bread crumb mixture....
--
Ed Huntress


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On 7/13/2014 8:17 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:

I've been tending to let the mindless automatons who ceaselessly keep spewing the same sort of repetitive and dogmatic nonsense all day, and there are several different versions of that type here for some reason, go on with their pointless obsessions and meaningless prattle.
I just correct whatever errors in their flood of stupidity happen to catch my interest at the time, usually by pointing out the facts and the logic of the case. I know that it won't make the least difference to them, because the mind of a fanatic is, by definition, a closed mind. But at least a small rivulet of reality, fact and sense is on record, alongside the tsunami of ignorant, dogmatic spewage that sort produces. Beyond that, they simply are not worth bothering with, not in the least because their type of fanatical insanity renders them unfit for normal discussion or rational debate.
--
?The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification
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On 13 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to Jeff M's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration,

Sad thing is Winston and I started out with a normal discussion and I was enjoying the debate. Though tragically after demanding references, that I quickly provided he kept yelling 'BS' and ingoring the facts.
Rather then have a normal discussion arguing the facts I provided - as I was more then willing to do, he fully ignored them to continue his tirade. Since he considers Acts of Congress to be 'irrelevant and incorrect', while snipping them because they proved his previous statements incorrect... I'd hardly call that actions of a convincing debater.
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On 7/13/2014 9:27 PM, Robert James wrote:

I haven't been following that discussion. My comment was intended to be general in nature, about conversations that quickly became very tiresome, and the sorts of people who quickly make them that way. Thus, my comment may or may not have anything at all to do with you, or with any other specific individual.
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?The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in
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wrote:

You are right. I have this genetic flaw that when my BS detector goes off, I feel the urge to correct the errors.
I spotted him as a troll from about his second post. My reason for engaging him so long was that his BS sounds good if you buy it all -- and if you don't know any history and very few facts.
He presented his spiel as a sure-fire way to get rich. Just buy some silver and sit back and watch it become a fortune. I couldn't help fearing some newbie or innocent lurker might get suckered in and lose money they can't afford to. Silver is a very volatile market that seems to be driven by the most ungodly, unrelated things. Nothing sure thing about it at all. Buyer beware.
Hence, my need to point out the many BS mines he strew about. I suspect now, they have been warned to do due research or they are beyond educating.
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On 15 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to Winston_Smith's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration,

Like US silver bullion coins selling out,
time:
http://tinyurl.com/b487bgq (U.S. Mint Silver Coins Run Out as Buying at Five Year High)
and time:
http://tinyurl.com/ko2cvyz (2014 Silver Eagle Sales Limited By Rationed Blank Supply)
and time again:
http://www.coinnews.net/2013/01/18/2013-us-silver-bullion-coins-suspended- on-cusp-of-sales-record/ (2013 US Silver Bullion Coins Suspended on Cusp of Sales Record)
Maybe it has to do with demand?!?!?!
Regardless, they be sell'in alot lot o' silver, that they don't dung have!!
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Let's see. You say there is enormous demand, sources are selling out.
And that high demand for a scarce material accounts for dropping prices.
What a wonderful world of economics you live in.
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On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 16:09:40 -0700, "IrrationalmachinisT" wrote:

Sure you did. Snicker.
Wouldn't that make YOU the troll ?

You always find some out so it's not your fault. This one must have taxed your pea brain to the point of overheating.

Bull shit.

You have a mirror in your house?
This thread is about precious METALS, you "idiot". Can you point out where I mentioned politics ? Hummmm, Bunky?

On second thought you should try to get your money back. Your anger is beyond control. It must suck to be you.
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On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 14:28:54 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT" wrote

What "off topic content"? Oh, you must mean replying to YOUR off topic post.
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