The Silver Bull Market

On 11 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to Betty's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO
VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration,

As for the coins, you likely sold them at around $5/oz... sure you can buy 'em back... but expect to pay 4 times the price at least --- plus you will need to shell out an extra $2-5 per coin as a premium. Silver certificates have been *worthless* since 1968, except to a collector (think of the beanie babies and pokemon cards market).
As far as gold, it almost always moves up before silver. Though, here is a secret... due to industrial use - man has used up 55-60% of the silver EVER mined. The current gold to silver ratio is 63. That means it takes 63 oz of silver to trade for a single oz of gold... but here is the kicker - there is ONLY 4 times as much silver above ground in all forms as gold! With gold at $1,437 CAD/oz an ounce that would value silver at $359 CAD/oz, not it's current $23 CAD/oz!
EVEN IN THE ENTIRE EARTH THERE IS ONLY A NATURAL 10-15 GOLD/SILVER RATIO SINCE THE DAWN OF THE FIRST SHOVEL!
Either gold is over priced by a factor of 15, or silver is on a fire sale. Considering it costs around $20/oz to mine silver (even as a byproduct of copper & zinc) these days since we hit peak, I'd say stock up now. When dollars, stocks and bonds becomes toilet paper... bitcoin will not be riding on a white horse to save the day. Heck, you can not even use digital bitcoins as firewood!
Silver on the other hand has has the highest electrical conductivity & highest thermal conductivity of all metals on earth. After oil, it turns out silver is the single most important substance to modern civilization as we know it (excluding food and water of course)!
My little rant is so important that I needlessly x-posted it.
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On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 22:48:25 +0000 (UTC), Robert James wrote:

On 2014-07-04 it closed at $21.15 USD.
http://www.kitco.com/hist_charts/silver/24_hours/2014/ag07042014.gif
It's $21.45 USD at the close of today, Friday.
http://www.kitco.com/images/live/silver.gif
Just 1.4% movement in a week in a traditionally volatile market is hardly a skyrocket. All of today's movement happened in a few minutes as the Hong Kong market was closing for the day. As you say, manipulation or some big trader making a move. I'll bet it corrects Monday.

The trouble is, people have been making this argument for a decade or more. The 15:1 ratio IS "historical" and came from a time when gold and silver were money as in the currency used for daily life commerce. Today they are both just markets and the markets seem to have made their own rules a few decades back.

That's an old argument too. Both gold and silver have been produced as a multiple metals yield process for almost a century and both have been produced at only a small markup over cost for years now. At times producers had to sell it at a loss because they were locked into honoring futures contracts that matured. Many if not most, have closed those bookings. Many mines have shut down with enormous known deposits in the earth simply because there was no cost-to-market profit.

Talking about industrial uses for a product after the apocalypse is a bit of an oxymoron isn't it.
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On 7/11/2014 6:30 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:

What, there won't be any need for circuits or radios?
Sod off Winnie, you poof.
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On 11 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to Big Muddy's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration, email.me:

Two words - "solar panels".
They require large ammounts of silver compaired to say cell phones, computers and the like. Plus solar energy is the only really effective way to produce renewable energy. When peak oil hits your wallet, silver to the rescue!
BTW, silver traditionally followed in oil's price, not gold.
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On Sat, 12 Jul 2014 01:24:21 +0000 (UTC), Robert James

Robert, I see you have met our beloved group troll.

My point is that after an economic collapse, there is very little industrial activity of any sort. Witness the First Great Depression of the 1930s.
Solar panels are great. When people are wondering how to buy supper, they are not high on the list.

Silver went in the dumper like every other commodity during the First Great Depression. Gold was price fixed or it almost certainly would have done the same.
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On 11 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to Winston_Smith's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration, email.me:

The Great Depression was deflationary. Though the Fed, BOC and the ECB makes that argument this is happening today, there actions with quantitative easing, re-bubbling the credit market and turning the purpose of government bonds on it's head says otherwise.
Deflations are a reduction in monetary supply. We simply have an issue of decreased liquidity of debt today, since most people are unable or unwilling to sign loans since the collapse of mortgage-backed securities.
That being said coins were 90% silver dueing the depression. There was no need to barter in silver during the depression. The price of silver was FIXED by the United States Constitution since a dollar is 420 grains of 900 fine silver as per the founding fathers.
During the depression when stocks and other markets fell 90%, silver was money - and those that used it to acquire stocks when they were hopelessly undervalued got rich.
During that time back runs to convert silver certificates, United States notes and Federal Reserve bank note into real Morgan dollar was huge. People back then knew paper currency was just an IOU for silver!
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On Sat, 12 Jul 2014 02:50:53 +0000 (UTC), Robert James wrote:

It was in monetary terms but the name reflects that all commerce activity was depressed. In simple terms, nobody had a job, thus no body bought anything. The only way you could sell anything was to take less for it.

Irrelevant. The Great Depression was a deflation that followed a period of inflation. We are inflating the money supply now. We will stay where we are or deflate.
If we stay where we are, silver is only a sensible investment IF you see continued monetary inflation AND if you think silve will out inflate other investments.
If we deflate, commerce stops, or at least slows drastically, and commodity prices, including silver, go in the toilet.

Yes, but we are talking about Depression. See above. Do you understand the difference?

Because of a record of not being able to pay them back when they lose their income as commerce becomes depressed.
But it's much more than that. There was no less money in the Great Depression than there was in the Roaring Twenties. It's just that those that had it sat on it. There was near zero velocity. Those that live hand to mouth, most people, spent their "stash" on groceries and found there was no work next week. They bought nothing because they were broke and commerce stopped.

There was no need because paper dollars and silver dollars were interchangeable at any bank any time. Where did you drag up bartering?

Nope.
WRONG
BULLSHIT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Silver has not been price fixed since 1893. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Depression_of_1893 "With the Coinage Act of 1873, bimetallism was disestablished by congress and gold was established as the standard." "The collapse of the Silver market beginning in 1893 dropped the price of silver from 83 cents to 62 cents an ounce. ... Then, as the silver mines began to close due to the continued drop in silver prices, "
Nope. The price has been all over the place including the dumper during the Depression. It was $.69 in 1925, $.28 in 1932. By sometime between 1945 and 1946 it had struggled back up to it's 1925 value. TWENTY years later. http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/silver/880798.pdf has a table giving the annual average price of silver from 1900 through 1998.
http://cowles.econ.yale.edu/P/cm/m04/m04-16.pdf The postwar decline in the price of silver, 1920-1933
NOT price fixed. Gold was price fixed by the government during the Depression. Silver was not. The price of silver went in the dumper with all commodities and recovered in parallel with them as we came out of the Depression.

Silver was money and so was the paper dollar as they were interchangeable at any bank at any time. The problem was not using your wealth, the problem was having any wealth. When industry collapsed, the vast majority of people had no job and thus no income. Just like today.

Bull shit. With capital B and capital S. Where do you get this crap ? The run on banks was to get your savings out before the bank collapsed. There was no FDIC. When the bank failed the savings accounts were worthless. The bank had no money to pay them back but solvent banks would exchange paper and metal at your request.
The customers would have been glad to get their savings out in either form. People considered paper and silver dollars as equal. They were equal. You could get paid in your choice and the store took either equally.
If you are as ignorant of history as you appear, I urge you to study before you invest a lot in any form. You think have an inside track on a sure thing to get rich that everyone else is too dumb to see. Prepare to get taken to the cleaners.
If you are just another usenet bullshit artist, stop making things up as I can call you on every little fantasy you pump out.
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On 12 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to Winston_Smith's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration,

What the fuck are you on about? There was no inflation in actual product values pre-depression. There was a massavive increase in stocks price due to speculation. Stocks were the new tulip buds in a world where the industrial revolution changed the nature of wealth and supply.

BULLSHIT! As currency deflates, inflates or there is a credit crisis PM demand spreads as investors get freaked out.

Naturally you don't dipshit. During the Great Depression, silver made huge gains even as the price of everything else fell down a hole. The cost-of-living adjusted performance of silver made over 80% gains in 1934 alone.

Silver coinage was accepted for purchases at a fraction of an items value, true. In other words silver INCRESSED in value, as I stated above. What you FAILED to notice is that in the Great Depression banks WOULD NOT convert paper currency to silver coinage, only silver certificates. And most stores WOULD NOT take Fed or Treasury bills. Learn history, before making up your own.

Um Hello... Hello MCFLY???? <hits Winnie in the head with my fist topped cane>
The United States did not elimanite silver in coins until 1964.
Think Mcfly, THINK! <hits Winnie in the head again with my fist topped cane>

I suggest you look at the coins prior to '64. They were silver. You fail to understand the KEY words *cost-of-living*. Think "Big Mac Index".
BTW, thanks for including a report that does not cover anything about silver during the depression, to make your point about... silver during the depression.

No, the original problem was caused by commissioned based salespeople selling loans to people just out of jail, no money down, bad credit, no credit, and making $9/hour... or even unempolyed. Currency is debt, if interest can not be paid when others take out new loans the pyramid collapses!

Dip shit. If you are going to spell it with a capital S... use a God damned capital S! People knew that other banks ran in the same manner. When the dominos start to fall you worry about the dominos you have your wealth stacked in... that includes paper curreny, which is issued BY OTHER FREAKING BANKS!

You have not called me on anything, you are just making up your own theories about the depression, while IGNORING completely that it was caused in full by paper backed assists collapsing, and ingoring the actual purchasing power of silver.
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On Sat, 12 Jul 2014 06:11:52 +0000 (UTC), Robert James

Ah, cost of living adjusted. That is not the price realized by actual buying or selling on the market. You said it was price FIXED, not remained constant in some fudged index. Try selling your silver at the $369 value you suggested.
I gave you the facts and you don't seem to want to recognize them. |-- The price has been all over the place including the dumper |-- during the Depression. It was $.69 in 1925, $.28 in 1932. By sometime |-- between 1945 and 1946 it had struggled back up to it's 1925 value. |-- TWENTY years later. |-- http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/silver/880798.pdf |-- has a table giving the annual average price of silver from 1900 |-- through 1998. The value of silver dropped 250% in 7 years and took 20 years to recover. You said it was price fixed.
Give us cites, not your statements, if you want to disprove that.

You have stated a lot of things. None with cites. You appear to be at variance with any number of respected sources.

Ah yes, abuse. A clear sign you are on the ropes and know it. More than that, you are snipping what you wrote and changing what it was I replied to.
You wrote: |-- >The price of silver |-- >was FIXED by the United States Constitution since a dollar is 420 grains |-- >of 900 fine silver as per the founding fathers.
That is WRONG. I replied (with a cite) that the law changed in 1873.: |-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Depression_of_1893 |-- "With the Coinage Act of 1873, bimetallism was disestablished by |-- congress and gold was established as the standard."
You just morphed from "silver was price fixed by the Constitution" to when silver was removed from coins a hundred years later. A total change of subject.

Same morph. I replied to your claim it was price fixed during the Depression (with a cite) and you respond with a bunch of irrelevant "indexes". Whatever the value was, real or adjusted, it was not FIXED by law. You statement is incorrect.

It has a table of the market price of silver for every year from 1900 to 1989. Was not the Depression in that time span? What about that does not tell you "anything about silver during the depression".
It tells you the price. It tells you that you were wrong when you said it was price FIXED.
Digression into more lies, misunderstandings, morphing, and general BS snipped. You appear to want to argue about things you make up instead of talk about true history.
Goodbye.
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On 7/12/2014 1:05 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:

Indeed YOU are.
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On 12 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to Winston_Smith's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration,

Irreverent! Considering the entire stock market fell 90%:
http://eh.net/encyclopedia/the-1929-stock-market-crash/
- Harold Bierman, Jr., Cornell University
Except mining stocks which jumpped 400%:
http://tinyurl.com/kv6puag
Thanks to unfulfilled demand of PMs that were not in a free market due to governdamnit regulation. The price of open markets was pointless to the day-to-day needs of people who consumed - not invested. Just as it was pointless to those who needed a stable store of trade.

"the money of account of the United States shall be expressed in dollars or units of the value [weight] of a Spanish milled dollar as the same is now current, and to contain three hundred and seventy-one grains and four sixteenth parts of a grain of pure silver."
The constitutional dollar in the United States is a "determinate, fixed weight of fine silver" as per the Coinage Act of 1792.

"Some important state banks in New York, running out of hard currency reserves, suddenly refused to convert paper money into silver. Other financial institutions throughout the nation quickly followed suit. Creditors refused to accept paper currency that seemed to be losing its value by the hour. The American economy's downward spiral accelerated."
- Miller Center, University of Virginia

I'll have to knock you on the head harder, till you get it - or start seeing stars.

Naturally you do not seem to understand that there were several competing currency systems at the time. Fed dollars, silver certificates, United States notes, and of course the revoked gold certificates. The creation of new forms of currency, including debt based Fed notes do not over-ride the fact an ACTUAL dollar IS a fixed weight of fine silver by founding law.
June 1968 marked the first time in the ENTIRE history of the United States that legal tender completely took over - and a PHYSICAL dollar was no longer silver.

Then inlude a JPEG of the actual chart, instead of a several page report that had NOTHING to do with any point you were trying to make about the depression - that did not even a paragraph focusing on that time-frame you were arguing about.

Again a REAL dollar is NOT a just unit of account by founding law, like banknotes are today. **SILVER ITSLEF IS THE DOLLAR**. It is a fixed value, because PMs are money itself. Everything else is an IOU.
I'll leave you with this quote:
"If ever again our nation stumbles upon unfunded paper, it shall surely be like death to our body politic. This country will crash!"
- George Mother Fick'in Washington First President of the United States of America.
So Long Winnie, and Thanks for All the Fish!
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On Sun, 13 Jul 2014 03:56:37 +0000 (UTC), Robert James wrote:

Irrelevant since you stated 1) the price was price fixed and 2) that was required by the Constitution.
You are wrong on both claims. Any relative calculations are just something you dragged in later as a topic morph to bail your ass out.
Sorry, them's the facts.
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On 13 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to Winston_Smith's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration,

Irreverent! Your "morph" about my attribution line has nothing to do with your original "morph" about the SECOND Great Depression (1873 was the first to claim that name) when I was talking about the conductivity of silver.
Nor does it have anything to do with your "morph" into digbat crazy Armageddon gibberish and modern offensive military weapons when I was talking about a change of the monetary system.
Also your "morph" about my attribution line has nothing to do with your last "morph" after I provided the sources you requested, upon totally ignoring them. Where you badger on about my ass rather then intelligently discuss the "relative calculations".
You seem to feed on getting in the final word, no matter how more and more irreverent your "morphs" become.
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Pathetic attempt to bail out after making a double misstatement snipped.
Oh, look there is nothing left.
Give it up.
You said the price of silver was price fixed during the Depression of the 1930s; you were wrong.
You said that was because of the Constitution; you were wrong.
As many morphs as you care to drag out will not change that.
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On 13 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to Winston_Smith's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration,
Continuous unsubstantiated definitions of insanity made by Winston_Smith snipped.
Soruces that prove my statments are accurate have been provided to you at your own request, which you ignore entirely in order to turn a once civil conversation into your personal flames.
Saying the wrong thing over and over again does not make you correct, simply because you stick your fingers in your ears after I provided sources that called your misguided false statements.
Guess you still feel the compulsive urge to get TLW even after I provided sources that invalidated your morphs.
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Very clever trick. Setting the reply to go to alt.test instead of here so it will appear I had no response. Boy, are you desperate. Sad piece of work, you.
On Sun, 13 Jul 2014 06:42:14 +0000 (UTC), Robert James wrote:

I made no definitions. The main point of contention is history and I provided multiple links to substantiate what I wrote. Your only reply, over and over, has to be to repeat your original statement without support or change the subject.

Damn few if any. Mostly you addressed my comments by changing the subject.

And that's just what you have been doing.
The price of silver was NOT price fixed during the 1930s depression. The price of silver has NOT been controlled by the Constitution since 1873.
If you can prove either of your claims, show us the proof. Not some digression to something that happened thirty years AFTER the depression or what you think of the financial future.

You have provided zero sources to support your original contention.
Show us your "sources" to prove: * The price of silver WAS price fixed during the 1930s depression. * The price of silver WAS controlled by the Constitution during the 1930s depression.
If you can prove either of your claims, show us the proof.

Snarly little turd, ain't ch?

"My morphs" as you listed them, are simply that you made a lot of erroneous statements in a long post. I corrected some of them. You manage to consider corrections to subjects that YOU BROUGHT up to be "morphs". Nothing more than another wiggle by you to try and pull the thread off your basic error.
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On 13 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to Winston_Smith's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration,

The Pittman Act was a United States federal law sponsored by Senator Key Pittman of Nevada and enacted on April 23, 1918. ***The fixed price of $1 per ounce was above the market rate and acted as a federal subsidy to the silver mining industry.***
In 1922 the Mint made silver dollar production its top priority, causing other denominations to be produced sparingly if at all that year. Production ceased temporarily after 1928; original plans apparently called for only a one-year suspension, but this was ***extended by the Great Depression. Mintage resumed in 1934.***
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_Dollar
"In usual and ordinary acceptation it means gold, silver, or paper money (Silver/Gold Certificates) used as circulating medium of exchange, and does not embrace notes, bonds, evidence of debt (Federal Reserve Currency). Lane v. Railey, 280 Ky.319,133 S.W. 2d 74, 79, 81."
- Blacks Law Dictionary, What is Money

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!
"By acts of Congress in 1933, including the Gold Reserve Act and the Silver Purchase Act of 1934, the domestic economy was taken off the gold standard and placed on the silver standard for the first time. The Treasury Department was reempowered to issue paper currency redeemable in silver dollars and bullion, thereby divorcing the domestic economy from bimetallism and leaving it on the silver standard."
- A History of Money and Banking in the United States; Murray Rothbard. ISBN 0-945466-33-1. (2005)

BULLSHIT, with a capital everything! I have provided several, which you continue to totally ignore. The Pittman Act fixed silver at $1 per ounce and continued through the minting of depression era Peace Dollars. According to Blacks Law Dictionary silver is money. The Silver Purchase Act of 1934 re-monetized silver and created a defacto domestic silver standard.
You failed! You are incorrect, my good man. You 'dun goofed!
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On Sunday, July 13, 2014 4:51:24 PM UTC, Robert James wrote:
So what kind of metalworking do you do using silver?
If you do not de metalworking, then you are in the wrong place.
Dan
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Keep slinging it. You might get lucky and something will stick. But so far, you have nothing but irrelevant facts and incorrect statements.
And you are too tiresome to waste time debunking your bull. I fear there is an endless train of it if you babble on for a while.
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On 13 Jul 2014; I imposed a declaration in opposition to Winston_Smith's motion to modify THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION in support of the CROSS MOTION TO VACATE THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. So noted by the Federal Court of Usenet Justice proceeding preliminary declaration,
Your irrelevant Winnie, and you have lost your argument. Silver was fixed during the depression by the Pittman Act, just as gold was fixed. The Silver Purchase Act of 1934 monetized silver once again, as per 1792 when the Mint Act defined the constitutional dollar as 371.25 grains (24.056 g) of silver. You are not debating or debunking me, you are simply ignoring the facts and rambling nonsense because you can not admit you are wrong!
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