"X-feel" of a surface grinder

Awl--
Lemme tellya--you pay one way or t'other....
Setting up used machinery is one *gigantic* pita, bruhs...
But, the Harig people are real swell, manuals are coming, etc.
But here's my current concern.
I seem to remember the x-travel (hand wheel) on a manual Kent as
silky-smooth. IIRC, you could spin that wheel on its own (and the table's)
momentum for a few revolutions.
With this Harig 6x12, not only can it not do this, I can quite "feel" the
motion w/ my hand on the platter--sorta rough-ish--seems to arise from the
rack/pinion drive.
A dial indicator does not show any jumping, if that's any, uh, indication.
The machine is not yet under power, and it does have a motorized lube pump,
altho I don't think, from looking at the ways, that this pump makes the
table "float" on oil, as the oil holes are only in one central spot. But
might it nevertheless be smoother w/ the lube pump on?
I just put motor oil on for now, to make it slick for testing purposes.
The ways are chromed, w/ a sort of dimpled finish you see on BP chromed
ways, altho the mating ways on the table itself are mirror-smooth.
Anyway, I can in the near future access the above Kent, for comparison, but
I wonder if different manual surface grinders just have different actions,
whilst still giving good accurate results.
I did expect the action in X to feel a little smoother, tho.
Opinons?
Yeah, I sorta bought a pig in a poke... sumpn I gotta stop doin--faith just
ain't cuttin it no more.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
Reply to
Proctologically Violated©®
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Well, where is that oil going to go? It flows outward from the hole and spreads across the ways. But
I sure hope so. If you can feel it moving roughly, it is not going to help the surface finish.
You only need flaking on one of the mating surfaces. If both faces of the ways were flaked, it might cause it to bump up and down if the flaking marks lined up.
Jon
Reply to
Jon Elson
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@rcn.net:
Does the Kent have ball ways?
If not then git the rust and crap off the ways. Check the oil pump and git it goin or yer gonna have problems like you stated.
All surface grinders have a different "Feel" to them. But clean it up real good first off and check the drive cable. Lube it up.
Good luck Bing
Reply to
Bing
If it is a harig I just went thru bringing an easysurf(harig) into action and the x way was tight as hell. Took me 20 minutes and a can of wd40 to get it loose again. Then I turned the pump up and it stayed that way. I actually had a piece of graphite stoch that worked its way into the table drain hole in the back of the chuck, and was dragging. Look there also. Harigs have no bearings on the ways, they are sliding on oil. It isn't designed for free action like bearing slides, but if oiled right it will be real close. Wd40 and that little straw that comes with it, keep spraying ,wiping,and cranking for a while till its loose, then get some way lube on it so it will stay that way for a while. Harigs are like Harley Davidsons, you pour oil in it, and most of ends up on the floor under the machine. Thats normal. Most people put a coffee can inside the cabinet to catch the draining oil since its constant.
Reply to
vinny
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@rcn.net:
The lube pump will "float" the table. It is a very small amount, but effective. The central location of the oil line is no indication of the internal plumbing of the slide. It most likely has 3 oil ports on each way, internally plumbed to the one line.
Reply to
Anthony
I had a Harig manual, then later bought a Chevalier. The Harig was certainly stiffer and rougher feeling than the Chevalier. As a couple of other posters mentioned, the Harig had regular ways, the Chevalier had ball ways. I think you are sensing a normal condition. In other words, don't worry about it.
Joe
Proctologically Violated=A9=AE wrote:
Reply to
Metal Man Joe
Too open ended a question....
If you look at the tools and other items that were produced on flat way grinders, it is clear these are capable of supurb quality work. It is also clear that there is some real c***p flat way machines, as there are some real c***p ball way machines.
It appears that the answe, asr in so many of these types of questions, is how much iron was used in the basic frame/bed castings, how well was it aged, how much care was taken in machining/aligning the machine, and perhaps most importently how good is the operator. There is also a question of how much you or your company is willing to pay.
I have watched some of the old timers work for days rescraping ways. When they were done the machine was a perfect as anyting I have seen. Labor costs today would be fantastic if you could even find anyone capable.
It appears that for the lower cost [relative] machines, flat ways still offer a cost advantage, but less accuracy/durability. The ball ways cost slightly more by unit/component price, but are less expensive to install/align, last longer, and have a better feel. Although in fairness, the best feeling surface grinder I ever used was one with hydrodynamic way bearings. I don't remember the name but it had a small pump that recirculated filtered oil from a sump.
Does anyone know if the manufacturers are using the polymer/teflon compounds such as Moglice on grinder ways?
Uncle George
Reply to
F. George McDuffee
I don't think the ball way type is any more accurate. In fact adding a lot more variables to the equation never makes things more accurate. Ball ways are great for larger work, and surface work, because its effortless to crank. But nothing fits a man better than a harig, and its great for form work. I find myself slightly turning on the brake on ball ways, they move TOO effortlessy for me.
Reply to
vinny
F. George McDuffee wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Very true. If anything a properly built conventional way machine will be less prone to chatter. The beig difference to me comes when you are running a manual machine all day by cranking the handles. Ball ways are a lot easier to crank all day long. We have a Proth grinder that has conventional ways. The machine was new but had sat instorage for several years. It was very stiff and covered with petrified cosmoline. The way oil in that was in the lines from the factory turned to varnish. We cleaned it up with kerosene and ran kerosene through the lube pump until the lines opened up. It works great now.
They must have scraping a giant machine. I was just at Tsugami and their better guys can scrape 3-4 machines per shift. They still use red lead too. They scoff at using Dykem, it's too thick for precision work. These machines are high precision two axis gang tool lathes.
Not sure about surface grinders but most cylindrical grinders are either roller way or hydrodynamic. There are still some lathe and machining centers being built with Turcite lined ways. Moglice is a little different animal. The Europeans seem to prefer building with Moglice. I have an older optical comparator (Vermont Precision) that has Moglice ways. They wear smooth and flat, and we don't use it every day, so the ways stick badly. I'd like to find some special way lube that would prevent that. So if anyone knows of something let me know.
Everything you ever wanted to know about Moglice:
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Reply to
D Murphy
I got the lube pump pumping, altho it took awhile for the lube to get to the ways. Does this lube come out w/ any real pressure? How do I know what flow/pressure is adequate? Right now you can see it flow distinctly out of the way holes, altho I imagine this flow is reduced when the table is put on. Apropo of Harley Davidson's, this machine has a drip tube and bottle in the cabinet.
Also, there's a sight glass at the top of the column. What does the oil do way up there? The Z ways?
I see what you mean about flat ways vs ball bearing and all-day cranking. :) Big diff!
Interesting--even this small-ish Harig 6 x12 is almost 1,000 lbs! Proly more, w/ a magnetic chuck!
We had a hydraulic Boyar Shultz that I coulda got cheap, or even free, but the hydraulics were leaky, mebbe shot--sorta beyond my skill level, and my psychological ability to cope right now... ---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll
Reply to
Proctologically Violated©®
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in news:aqidnYmLJ-pGVgHenZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@rcn.net:
No real pressure. It should just kinda bleed out of the ports. Just make sure non of the holes are clogged.
That sounds about right. When the table is on the oil will pool in the scaped areas and help create a film that covers the whole way. The table should float on top of the film. Using the correct way oil will make a big difference in how the table :feels" when you're cranking it.
I imagine. Or it could be for the screws or the spindle.
I know the one we have will wear you out. Especially if it's been sitting for a couple of months.
It will probably run another twenty years with the leak. Just like a Harley or a dog, it's only marking its territory. :)
Reply to
D Murphy
A harig is a "feel"machine. It has to become an extension of the operator. Start by just cracking the valve open. The feel is in the up and down cranking. It needs some drag, gonna have to find that spot on your own. Should also be free enough to spin a 1/2 inch down on one crank.
Oh yah, use harig oil. Its different than just regular way oil and it makes a difference, maybe somebody else can elaborate, I forget why....
Yep.
You get used to it and grow to actually like it. I find myself slightly locking the x feed on ball bearing grinders to add some drag.
Harigs rock, easy to maintain. You made a good choice.
Reply to
vinny
Ive got two manual Boyar Shultz Id give free to anyone who wants to come up and get em. Need some TLC and probably new spindle bearings.
Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.
Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner
Reply to
Gunner Asch
"vinny" wrote in news:439cda97$0$86609$ snipped-for-privacy@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net:
Yea I dont remember either. I think it has less additives or some such.
The oil in the sight glass is for the Z axis screw.
Cranking is one thing but when not locked to a point them bastards can be dangerous as hell.
I like em for accuracy but if yer not careful you can git hurt REAL easy onna ball way surface grinder. I've seen people accidently bump into the table and blow sine plates off the chuck and 20 feet down the road. I've also seen dressing diamonds fly off as well including lots of other things.
Bing
Reply to
Bing
They indeed recommend the Harig oil, as the 612 needs a "200 SUS" type oil, but also said the Mobil Vactra #2 is pert near as good. Theirs is $44/gal, the Vactra is sposedly much cheaper. Also mailing me a photocopy of the manual, no charge! Good of them to help a sucka out, very good people. BP wants $50 for their updated manual, but said the one I have should suffice--also very nice helpful people.
MSC has Vactra; what kinds of local places might have it?
BP shows a picture of their surface grinder--looks just like the Harig! I think they were combined at one time, now Hardinge has BP. ---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll
Reply to
Proctologically Violated©®
"vinny" wrote in news:439e24a8$0$54295$ snipped-for-privacy@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net:
Ewe, bad juju there man!
Shudder
Bing
Reply to
Bing
Back in my apprentice days I had a commie (TOS) surface grinder plunging smack down into the plate I was grinding - for no apparent reason at all. When I told the boss what happened he just gave me the "yerrright!whodoyouthinkyourefooling" look, and told me to carry on. A few weeks later I was vindicated when the same thing happened to one of the other guys. We took the machine apart and found the head of a broken allen screw riding on top of the rack teeth. Once in a blue moon this little bugger would get caught between the rack and the pinion, lifting the bed of the grinder up against the grinding wheel.
Reply to
Jan Nielsen

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