Re: How Robots Will Steal Your Job

Roedy Green wrote:


---------- They are the same.
Self awareness sounds a bit like a

-------------- Nonsense.
----------------- No. Not before they can do that, they aren't!

----------------------- Last resort of a coward. We eat animals. We've decided.

--------------------------- Not all humans know trig. But they can all talk about themselves without needing to be "interpreted". Animals can't speak the language, but they don't have anything to say, either! How do we know? Because, even the ones that DO talk can't do that!
-Steve
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wrote or quoted :

To me your argument is that of a religious fanatic. You pretend to know what you do not. I find your certainty baffling. But then then so is the certainty of all religious belief.
You argue by repeated assertion. It is not in the least convincing. Perhaps you took this argument from somewhere else. Perhaps that originator makes the case more carefully.
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Roedy Green wrote:

--------------- And I maintain that you're merely ignoring the obvious. Humans have the capacity for REFLECTION!! When you consider it carefully, you realize that the WHOLE of the Individual's Life-World and Everything You Think Is Real is made strictly of this Reflection, the Truth both REVEALS and INSISTS that *IT* is the One and Only Source of Our Being as Being Knows Itself!!
All "previous" forms of alleged "life" are merely as hypothetical in their realness as the form of "time" in which they theoretically existed within without being aware they did, which is none at all that is REAL Time, namely, one we have experienced or can speak of as experienced BY a Human that Reflects!
There are several kinds of Time, and a future language will someday acknowledge this with separate words and even concepts for them. We experience Time(1) since we last paid attention, Time(2) since we woke up today, Time(3) since we've been Aware, and then there are lesser forms of alleged "time"(alleged) such as "time"(1) another claims to have experienced elsewhere/when, and "time"(2) that only supposedly existed or in fiction, and then "time"(3) scientific before humankind, and so on. The latter three are merely intellectual fictions.

------------- Nope, you simply resist it. That's cheap disingenuity. Your dishonesty confabulates in your vested motivation.
Pretending not to understand and that the other person is a "fanatic" is merely an easy out.
-Steve
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wrote or quoted :

Let us say I am reflecting on a conversation I had. Now I am not reflecting. I am eating an apple. Am I suddenly unconscious?
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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message <

That could be the case! Since when does a biological system do more than it has to? "Just good enough" appears to be the overall theme. (Perhaps Bill Gates is God after all!) "The capacity for REFLECTION" may be no more than the cheapest way to implement an infinite-loop detector in wetware, and we're "conscious" only while coasting along on autopilot fails to produce the expected results. Any illusions to the contrary are provided by a mechanism similar to that which papers over our abysmal .7 second sense-organ-to-brain-to-muscles round-trip times, and even that's only when we're actually paying attention:
URL:http://skytran.net/09Safety/03sfty.htm
-- Joe Foster <mailto:jlfoster%40znet.com> DC8s in Spaace: <http://www.xenu.net/ WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!
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Roedy Green wrote:

----------------- Sure, we do that all the time, Gurdieff talked about us not really being here when we do that, but we obtain our Value by having once been aware, and by the potential to be so again. When that stops, the law can turn us off, someone comatose with no chance to become reflective again as the same person as previously, is legally dead.
Everything we do regarding this stuff proves my points, repeatedly.
We eat animals, sanction abortion, and turn off comatose persons for this same single reason, because the Universe/World/Life ONLY exists in the Reflective Aware experience, and nothing else exists at all or ever existed. The Many Worlds Interpetation of QM is mis-cast and mis-named, it is actually The Many Lives Interpretation. The Physics of the Infinite Universes only exist to Aware Persons. The World is merely a part of that Aware Experience of Life. All things have their existence THROUGH US!!
-Steve
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wrote or quoted :

I can eat an apple without paying attention, or I can savour it. Surely I am conscious savouring it.
I would say my dog Sheldon (long deceased) enjoyed his food much more than I did. Would that not make him conscious?
Sheldon would "worry" if someone in the house was distressed. He would get a sort of tense look on his face. Would that not be a sort of reflection? Mulling over what the matter might be. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Roedy Green wrote:

It is your *capacity* for reflection that sets you apart, not that you reflect 24/7.
--
|_ CJSonnack < snipped-for-privacy@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL |
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On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:33:45 -0600, Programmer Dude

That makes no sense. That is like saying the ability to pilot a plane is what makes a great cook.
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Roedy Green wrote:

?? THAT makes no sense, you're right about that! :-)
Look back at what you wrote. I'm saying that your ability to pilot a plane makes you a pilot, EVEN THOUGH you are sometimes sleeping (and presumably NOT a pilot at that moment).
--
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|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL |
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Roedy Green wrote:

-------------------- If he had to do both at once, no, but this is a situation in which the cook has to fly from gig to gig.
-Steve
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wrote or quoted :

Are you aware of experiments demonstrating that many animals can count? (And I am not referring to Hans the horse.) That is an abstraction. Have you ever seen the video about the parrot that understands colour, shape and number and is able to do simple logical functions?
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Roedy Green wrote:

----------- My computer can count, AND talk. These are actually much lower capabilities than awareness, they are just not usually recognized as such.

------------ No, it's not, the IDEA of a number is, but that's not necessary to counting either, just as it isn't for my computer to count.

---------------- Yes indeed, I have the video. It is trained, it didn't learn.
-Steve
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wrote or quoted :

A human who takes some heavy drug may be unable to speak or reason, but when the trip is over he is able to describe the experience. He was apparently conscious through it all. Consciousness does not seem to have all that much to do with higher brain function.
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Roedy Green wrote:

---------------- None of 150 acid experiences did that to me.

------------------------- I know of no drug experience which you don't know what happened till you recall it later.
-Steve
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On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 00:16:48 GMT, Roedy Green

Yup. Smarter people than me (and maybe even you :-) have spent more than one day pondering that question.
--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
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Roedy Green wrote:

--------------------- No, that's just a preference, not a real conclusion.
Instead back to the question, solipsism: You can't tell whether it is actually YOU, who are "conscious", or another mind that is conscious of you! No, I'm not being facetious, the whole notion of solipsism presumes ownership of one's own thoughts, when we have NO control of "our" thoughts, and when our "ownership" or "selfness" both are merely unnecessary CONCEPTS which themselves are no more than ideas IN the mind, and not the mind itself, in fact, all the notions that involve "self" are ideas IN the mind anyway, and NOT that "mind"!!!
In fact it can be said that NO possession of "one's self" is even possible, because it is totally ineffectual, it changes nothing! For all we know we are controlled by another or others, we would have NO way to tell AT ALL! Descartes might as well have said, "Something thinks "ME" therefore "I" am!!" Or even better: "The idea of me existing exists, therefore "I" am!" Possession is merely a stupid western notion. Whether others are unconscious epiphenomena is a bit irrelevant, if we have no better claim to consciousness.
What it finally comes down to is that you are a collection of related ideas, no mind to put them in is even needed, they stand on their own, which may be obvious to students of Buddhism, who are familiar with the Buddhist concept of "Mu-Shin" or of "no mind" being required for ideas to arise "within", because there is NO "within" anyway. Ideas are the story that is reality. Trying to put an imaginary box around an idea and claim it is "yours", when the notion of "yours" is one of those same ideas ANYWAY, is ridiculously circular!!!!!
Life is ideas, not yours, not mine, we ARE those ideas, nothing more.

------------------------ There are such things, if you stop equivocating about them.
They are more obvious than that which pleases and comforts you.
-Steve
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D. Jay Newman wrote:

------------------------------- No, this isn't a straw man. This is a more subtle point. People have this pathetic fallacy that if it has a face and functions, that it is Self-Aware, not realizing the recent nature of that development.

-------------------------------- If you have researched animal behavior you will know that can't be so, if you are honest/not deluded. When we even TRY to imagine being so much less aware, so as to rationalize how the animals experience their own animal behaviors, we suddenly come to the conclusion that we would have to give up far too much of what we call being aware, to actually persist in the belief that they are.
We know that we cannot imagine not being Aware, and yet that IS what we are called upon to do regarding even most higher mammals if we are to imagine being one of them. We literally have to give up the kernel of our Awareness so as not to be merely a human in a lion suit pretending. We cannot mentally emulate them, without losing the very Awareness that is trying to do so.

-------------------------- A few of these thought experiments is all I require.

------------------------------- And I also know that they cogitate, but the subtle point here is that they don't KNOW that they do so!! That knowing, this watching of onesself iswhat Awareness is, and THEY DON'T!! If they did, for instance if those parrots did, then they could talk ABOUT themselves doing things, and their experience of that!! Gorillas sure, maybe, apes, cetceans,well maybe, but not the other so-called higher mammals or anything lower.

---------------------------- No. They are just ignorant and superstitious.
-Steve
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Folks, I was wonderring if any of you realised that this thread is cross-posted to comp.lang.java (as well as other groups irrelevant to whether a 'door knob is conscious')
While this thread has been long (..very long) and at times mildly amusing, could I ask y'all, ..nicely, to please delete comp.lang.java.programmer from the follow-ups.. Please.
-- Andrew Thompson * http://www.PhySci.org/ PhySci software suite * http://www.1point1C.org/ 1.1C - Superluminal! * http://www.AThompson.info/andrew/ personal site
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| Folks, I was wonderring if any of you | realised that this thread is cross-posted to | comp.lang.java...
comp.lang.java._programmer_
And there is me, making fun of the door-knob. ;-)
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