Re: How Robots Will Steal Your Job

Bent C Dalager wrote:


----------------------- And it makes some sense. If a kind won't protect itself, then what can they expect? But of course we can argue with the Belgians about that, but we can't with lower species. And they ARE "lower"! They are NOT our "equals".
-Steve
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R. Steve Walz wrote:

Very few people believe that animals are human's intellectual equals. You keep putting words in other's mouths and then calling them liars.
I do believe that self-awareness (sentience) is a continuous function and that many species of animals are self-aware. Of course, since we are only beginning to understand the mechanisms of self-awareness I can't prove thiss
However, after being close to dogs for several years there does seem to be some sentience. Even my senegal parrot seems to show self-awareness. And no, I don't believe either are up to human standards.
I'll admit that there are some who believe that animals are their equals. Perhaps they are right. :) -- D. Jay Newman http://enerd.ws/robots /
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D. Jay Newman wrote:

I disagree, I don't believe lower mammals are self aware, as it is commonly defined;
self-a·ware (slf-wβr) adj.
Aware of oneself, including one's traits, feelings, and behaviors.
I have never seen my dogs exhibit their being aware that they are dogs. Yes, there is life, and a rudimentary intelligence mostly learned via experience due to use of rewards and punishment. But, I know of no animal that is aware of it's position in phylum, simply because it requires intelligence to grasp the concept of phylums.
As far as machine "intelligence" I am unaware of any AI or expert system arriving at the conclusion that "it" is a computer software system -- more a requirement of being self-aware then a sign of intelligence.

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wrote or quoted :

What's so special about that? First you can't measure it. It sounds to me like an artificial distinction rigged to make man win, sort of like a racist defining intelligence as lightness of skin.
There are obviously many kinds of intelligence. We completely devalue any sort of intelligence we are weak in.
When I asked Dr. John Lilly what he thought dolphins did with their huge brains he said "Something else". I asked if there was anyway to get a glimpse of what that was. He said "Yes, swim with them.".
Until someone has performed at least that tiny experiment, I look on people who pontificate on animal stupidity as like children who pontificate on sex.
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Roedy Green wrote:

---------------------------- It's fine, we all like John Lilly, but that's not the point. He has a religion based on LSD and Dolphins, and I join him in the LSD part at least, but I have to be true to what I see. I see that no lower animals talk about themselves lower than apes and cetaceans, maybe.
That means they aren't Aware they Exist! And without that, you're JUST NOT HOME! -Steve
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wrote or quoted :

Anything that is capable of experiencing pain is aware of its existence. I think that is what defines awareness. Can something be hurt? Is there anything in there that truly cares what happens to it?
A mechanical frog might look as if it can experience pain, but it seems highly unlikely it really would, but I yet have no way to measure, so I remain officially uncertain.
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Roedy Green wrote:

------------- No.
------------------------------------ No. If so then you will need to imagine that single celled organisms feel pain as you do. Nonsense.

------------------------------------- A purely produced act, to evoke your meaning, is not what I mean by mechanical. I'm not talking about an automaton programmed to emulate "writhing in pain". I'm talking about a full neurological reaction that is still non-conscious.
-Steve
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wrote or quoted :

I can imagine a universe where it could work either way. Single celled organisms are just like little robots with nobody home, or like little animals with little miniature consciousnesses that do feel. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 22:26:46 GMT, Roedy Green

We can't even measure consciousness in humans yet. It seem thus very premature to close the issue in other species.
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Roedy Green wrote:

----------------------- No, most people are merely confused about the question. Some aren't.
-Steve
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message wrote or quoted :

Agreed; consciousness is awareness_of.
The "objects" within consciousness, that consciousness is aware of, are a varied as the possesor of the faculty of consciousness.
Paramecia are aware of certain types of signals/information/etc., humans a much greater range of signals/informatio/etc.

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OmegaZero2003 wrote:

--------------------- Blather. Paramecia are machines. They are no more aware than a lightswitch.
-Steve
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wrote or quoted :

What sort of experiment could you do to tell?
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Roedy Green wrote:

---------------- None needed, there are no structures with that complexity. Without that you can't merely suppose something purely subjectively. It's like saying you are in another city while you're standing here, and asserting that there you are invisible and can't affect it for anything.
-Steve
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"R. Steve Walz" wrote:

[grin] Not an ideal example. Around here, the lightswitches are "aware" of (warm) bodies in the room....
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Programmer Dude wrote:

------------------- Only in the loose, erroneous lay usage of the word "aware".
And that's NOT the one under discussion, however a blithering idiot might persist in pretending it is.
-Steve
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"R. Steve Walz" wrote:

It was a JOKE, son. A JOKE, I say!
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Programmer Dude wrote:

---------------------- Okay, Foghorn, I am a bit humorless about this stuff.
-Steve
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Roedy Green wrote:

------------------ Haven't you even ever asked the question, "What feels?" A wall switch feels you switched it?? Gimme a break.
-Steve
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wrote or quoted :

It is pure supposition what feels. The only thing I have to go on is what wriggles or complains like me.
One way you might look at it is, "The only data point that I can measure, namely me, is conscious, so until I can prove otherwise, I should assume EVERYTHING else is too, even rocks, and trees." This is the mindview of many primitive peoples.
With the invention of anaesthesia, you discover that you can be unconscious. You can feel consciousness fading away. Then you have reason to assume things that don't react to stimuli are possibly not conscious.
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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