Telepresence - Big deal?

A company I work for is planning on putting some small Manufacturing plants in South America to expand our operations. We would plan on bringing the new employees to our U.S. location for training. Of course, we can't train them 100% on all that might go wrong, or what to do in unusual situations. Therefore we will need to assist them on these things from our U.S. office.

On other job's I've done 3-D design of large weldments. Sometimes I would be called by the shop to answer a question, and was able to answer it just talking on the phone. But, it was usually easier to physically go up and help resolve an issue. In this case, the shop was only a 50' walk. Physcialy going to another country is certainly a barrier to quick resolutions of these things.

I was thinking that a simple mobile base 4 or 5 foot high, with a laptop and webcam on top, could be a big help. It could be connected to Internet via WiFi, and remotely operated in our office in the U.S. While the user in the U.S. could remotely drive it into the shop, I suspect that it would be more practical to just let the S.A. user wheel it to the area in the shop where they have the question. In the simplest implementation, the base isn't even motorized, but the camera is an off-the-shelf tilt and pan. The only non-standard thing I would add is a motorized laser pointer... and perhaps that could simply be glued to the camera and just aimed at a downward angle, so that when you aim the camera at a person, you aren't shooting the laser at their face.

In usage, the S.A. guy wheels it to an area in the shop where they are having a problem with a machine, and then initiates a video call to the U.S. office. The guy in S.A. can describe the problem while pointing with his hand to the problem area saying "There are sometime bubbles in the material when it comes out here." The guy in the U.S. can use the laser pointer to point out where he thinks there needs to be adjustment. The cameras could be aimed down at a paper so a user can sketch solutions as well.

The above is certainly cheap to do, since it only involves existing stuff that an office or shop may have. When I've attempted to use other existing web-cam robots, the time lag and slow framerate made it useless in my view.

I may report back here when I get a chance to try a simple unit out on my own. But, at the moment, things like firewalls and other stuff to protect our network have become barriers outside of my direct control.

Joe Dunfee

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Joe
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Having spent what seems like a life time of answer questions over the phone, going back to Rockwell as an Apps engineer in 1980, then for my own customers since. I know there are many ways to improve remote assistance. However, from my experience with tough cases and cross culture situations, like starting the company in the Philippines, I know there are moments where just a hand full of face to face grunts and hand waving could have saved hours of otherwise misdirected effort.

It's funny you mention that. I've worked quite a bit with the director of research in their services department at the university. When i was talking to him of the idea of a robot base he got very excited. One of the things we'd discussed was the idea of a problem with the "Germany" plant (just happened to pick a country for sake of discussion), how can I go out on the line and look to see what the problem is? Well if I can log onto one of the remotes there, I can drive right out to the production line and look around for myself. I can go to the worker on the line and ask him questions. I can look at gauges and see if I think parameters are okay or not.

We also talked about pointers, but we were thinking arms, where you could actually point like you would if you were face to face. The laser pointer is even a better idea. I'd probably make it independent from the head though. Another neat feature was if the remote worker had a laser of his own, perhaps modulated, where he could point, and the optics locally would cause the head camera to move there. So he could highlight features he wanted you to look at, and then ask questions as well.

I've done that before, where I wrote on a piece of paper and held it up to the camera where my face was. Problem was I only had a pencil. When I blackend in the lines making them about 1/4" thick it worked fine. So think "Marksalot" tip when doing that.

Some systems have what they call white boards, where one or both ends can draw on a screen and the other can see it. I've had no success to date using a white board, but tried several times.

That's the commercial market that Cisco and Polycom are seeing and going after.

Have you tried IM lately? Now called Windows Live Messanger. It does much better today than just a year ago. Also Skype, a free VoIP solution. Call anywhere in the world. They brought out a video version. It was too preliminary then, but it's been about a year since I tried it again, it may have improved.

I first tried to teach the class from my ranch. The latency got up to 4

- 5 seconds. That was simply annoying. Very choppy and disconcerting. Unnatural. However, from the office (T1) it worked well. About a 1/4 to

1/2 second. Very tolerable.

Yes, I had to open ports on my firewalls as well. Surprizingly, I didn't for Messenger. It was much better about translating past them.

Did you know you can buy PVX software that runs on your PC (>1.4GHz ones) for about $120? (Tigerdirect.com for instance). A copy on each end would get you close to what you are describing without the mobility, of course. It would be laptop to laptop then with no pan and tilt.

In their more expensive purpose built units, Polycom has pan and tilt cameras built in. My experience with PVX to Polycom 3000 in the class was that the camera would only move about one in four times of pushing the controls button, and rather later than I'd hope. I am told two Polycom units do very well with remote pan and tilt, and they have remotes to tell the camera where to go on the far end. Let's your distant operator point the camera where he wants to, to show something.

Contact me if you care to Joe. We can try a video IM message session and you can see how useful it is. I also just loaded the updated PVX software, but haven't used it yet. We'll probably be using it later today (this evening) in my next classroom appearance.

-- Randy M. Dumse

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RMDumse

Randy and I had a video conference yesterday, using Microsoft's Live Messenger. However, I was quite disapointed with the results. The main issue to me was lag time, which I roughly estimate at around 1 second. I would also have liked the frame rate to be improved.

I should note that a significant portion of the lag time was not internet related, because a lot was there when I viewed my own image from my camera. I should point out that I have a relatively old USB type 1, which has a slower speed than the current version 2. I was able to look at a simlar set-up at a store, using a new camera, but even then the lag was an issue.

The Ping times for internet inside the U.S. are typically around 0.1 to

0.2 seconds. I don't think that is a major problem... but leaves little time for other processes like video compression.

In my observation, the ability to see each other in near real-time is critical. The flow of a technical discussion involves seeing how the other person responds to what you say, so you can see if they are understanding and agreeing. People tend to interrupt each other, but mostly do so when they hear a good place to jump in. The lag I experienced in our test was bad enough that we tended to interrupt each other at inappropriate places.

I would have eagerly traded resolution and color in the video for less of a lag. But, neither Randy or I could find a way to adjust this. The only solution seems to be the high end type of video conferencing (costing well over $1,000) which has MPG compression built into the video hardware.

For telepresence using any kind of physical object, the problem has only got to be compounded. Sight is fundamental to being able to do this well.

Does anyone know of a good solution to the lag problem?

Joe Dunfee

Reply to
Joe

You should try Apple's Video iChat. I've used it between Austin and Chicago, as well as Austin and San Diego. There was no perceptible lag to the audio at all, and the video frame rate was decent too, with significant artifacts only if somebody started gesticulating wildly. I don't recall noticing any lag to the video either; just the compression artifacts if the scene changed too rapidly.

Best,

- Joe

Reply to
Joe Strout

I've just come from Apples iChat web page, but can't find a place to download it. it seems to be part of OSX... but I am not sure. I am on Windows XP myself.

Is it a Mac only solution?

Joe Dunfee

Joe Strout wrote:

Reply to
Joe

It might be. Still, if your alternative is a $1000 custom machine, a $600 Mac Mini with an iSight camera might be just the thing.

Best,

- Joe

Reply to
Joe Strout

I was less disappointed. I had a wonderful view of Joe. His picture and audio were excellent. I was less aware of the delay on my end. But of course, each to their own.

I think the delay comes not from the net ping time, but from the software trying to synch the lips and the words to come out a the same time.

I have had connections where the turn around times were very long, over

4 seconds, and yes, trying to have an interactive conversation with those delays is ... painful.

I'm not sure these high end units are truly better, but the do do processing in the camera, rather than the system they are attached to. But the unit on the other end of my usual connection has this, and the delays are still noticeable. I used one of those cameras, and I didn't think it did better than my Logitech Lap Top Pro.

Yesterday I also tried to download ViaVideo betaware. It wouldn't run on my computer. Errors out.

-- Randy M. Dumse

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Reply to
RMDumse

Another thought for Joe. The delay may have to do with firewalls and NATs. It could be the delays are caused by having to be address translated, or in getting through the firewalls. Perhaps you could try a tap upstream from the security in your office, and see if the delays were reduced.

-- Randy M. Dumse

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Reply to
RMDumse

On Jan 26, 3:10 pm, "RMDumse" wrote: Perhaps you could try

My test with you was from my home in PA. I won't be able to test things at the home office until I fly down in another month or two. I will post back here when I get any more results.

Joe Dunfee

Reply to
Joe

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