[F-FT] What is the law?

What is the actual law (with provided quote or cites) regarding purchase of H and I motors?
I realize that some of it may be up in the air as to whether BATFE allows EZ-Access, etc., but as it stands now (as far as I understand the current legal rulings), we are proceeding under the assumption/interpretation that they ARE allowed.
But here is my specific question -- what I 'understand' is that one can purchase an 'H' motor for purposes of certifying at Level 1. And they are apparently not supposed to purchase any others until they certify, or until the certification attempt has failed.
One is apparently also not supposed to FLY an 'H' motor or above unless it is specifically for a certification attempt -- and in those cases it would appear that everything is technically legal no matter how you look at it, because the attempt must be supervised by someone who is already legally qualified.
So, is there a LEGAL reason why one cannot buy more than one 'H' motor without certification, or is it 'tradition'? For example, I have two different level 1 rockets for my attempt. They require two different motors (diameter) because of the size of the rockets. I may have 'hangar rash' on a rocket, so I'd like to have a backup plan available, which is why I would want to have two engines. This would appear to make sense, and would appear (to my mind) to be legal -- especially if it was made clear during purchasing that these were for a level 1 attempt.
However, if I'm going to a multi-day launch, and will attempt a certification flight (and hope to succeed <G>), then I'd like to have a few more motors available for the launch. And since there are often delays in acquiring/shipping motors, it would make sense to get them ordered in advance of the launch.
So, what is that ACTUAL LAW that applies? Does the law state that one can't FLY an 'H' until certified, or that one cannot physically BUY an 'H' until certified? It doesn't seem that the latter could be the case, since it appears that you are allowed to buy them for certification attempts, but I honestly don't recall ever having seen it specfically spelled out.
Jerry, I already know about CFR dumpty-dump-de-dump, I'm asking folks for OTHER interpretations.
David Erbas-White

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Hi David,
I have no idea what is really legal, but it sure seems like no one <b>no one really knows for sure</b>.
And given that, you have certainly created a complicated scanio by which to pursue your L1. Maybe you should consider doing what I did:
Buy an Art Applewhite 10" cluster saucer. Build it in two evenings. Go to the launch. Buy an EM H50 single-use. Launch it. Get L1. Then do whatever you want. <grin>
No-brainer rocket, no-brainer engine, nothing to go wrong, only costs $35/saucer + $30/motor AND you get a $20 rebate from Art for certifying with his rocket!
And its actually a pretty cool rocket to have in your inventory.

Sorry, I couldn't help it...
Quote courtesy of H.G. Wells
Al

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How can you eat your puddin' if you havent' eaten your meat ?
could not help ;-)

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Been there, done that.

Jerry Irvine wrote:
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jerry has no clue.

Jerry doesn't watch enough old movies...

wrote:
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The book was better. :-)
Mario Perdue NAR #22012 Sr. L2 for email drop the planet
http://roci.indyrockets.org "X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded."

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I saw it live at the Rose Bowl instead. :)

wrote:
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Who cares what you do with your meat? Do you have anything new to contribute?

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Nope! And that seems to be a step or two ahead of you.

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"If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?" "You! Yes, you behind the bikesheds, stand still laddy!"
<g>
Tod "I see marching hammers..." Hilty

david: don't you live in kalifornia? If thats the case, then NFPA 1127, and the 1H sales and use provision(which is part of nfpa1127) would not apply it seems to me....
In kalifornia, they have their own set of rules and regulations and laws regarding HPR . They have their own state permit and licensing program.... http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/pdf/fireengineering/fw/FireworksHandbook2002.pdf
(4) Pyrotechnic Operator--Rockets First Class may conduct and is restricted to all activities in connection with research experiments, production, transportation, fuel loading and launching of all types of experimental rockets. Such operator shall also be responsible for the actions and conduct of all assistants. Operators licensed under subsection (b) are also required to obtain a local permit from the authority having jurisdiction prior to all launches.
(5) Pyrotechnic Operator-Rockets Second Class may conduct and is restricted to all activities in connection with research experiments, production, transportation, fuel loading and launching of all types of solid fuel experimental rockets only. Such operator shall also be responsible for the actions and conduct of all assistants. Operators licensed under subsection (b) are also required to obtain a local permit from the authority having jurisdiction prior to all launches.
(6) Pyrotechnic Operator--Rockets Third Class may purchase, transport, store, and launch high power rockets. Experimental high power rocket motors may only be imported, exported, and wholesaled by individuals or companies holding valid import, export, or wholesale licenses. Pyrotechnic Operators-- Third Class may only purchase high powered rocket motors from licensed wholesalers. Operators licensed under subsection (b) are also required to obtain a local permit from the authority having jurisdiction prior to all launches.
(3) Experimental High Power Rocket. Non-Professional rockets which are propelled by commercially manufactured high-power solid propellant rocket motors.
(4) Experimental High Power Rocket Motor. A State Fire Marshal approved, commercially manufactured rocket propulsion device containing a solid propellant charge wherein all the ingredients are pre-mixed and which produces more than 160 Newton-seconds (36 lb.-seconds) but shall not exceed 10,240 Newton-seconds (2302.2 lb.-seconds) of total impulse.
In kalifornia they have their own state rules and regs regarding HPR motors.... You don't have to be a member of either the NAR or TRA to fly H and above motors, all you need is the California State Pyrotechnics Operator-3rd Class . And as far as I know there is no California state law that states that you can only purchase 1 H motor...
hope this helps...if you are not in kalfornia, ignore everything I wrote above..
shockie B)
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To answer the question you must specify WHAT jurisdiction it is legal in.
Federal: no limits at all
State: no limits at all (except CA)
NFPA: varies widely
TRA: illegal.
Now ask yourself this. Why is TRA the most hurtful to HPR? Why isn't TRA a HPR advocate?
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Hello :)

jerry, excuse me but you are factually incorrect:
Both the NAR and TRA adhere to nfpa 1127: nfpa 1127 IS the HPR safety code for the TRA... nfpa 1127 doesn't vary "widely".... I have no idea what you mean by that, other than each state has the power to pick and choose which parts of each nfpa code they might wish to adopt... for example, kalifornia, has adopted parts of nfpa 1122, while at the same time California considers model rockets weighing up to 500 grams, where the actual nfpa 1122 limit is 454 g.... It may vary widely in the sense that not every state has adopted it as their state law..yet
shockie B)
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It is adopted in some states and not in others. That is wide variance.
TRA does not follow any rule that is not convenient for them at the time.
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...

Jerry Irvine wrote:
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Not according to the ATF.
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Pure BS, as always. Most if not all states have adopted the NFPA codes. Some states have additional regs. Illinois for instance, treats H motors as high explosives.

There are two levels (depending) of law.
At the top level is the federal explosives law:
http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_40.html
From which the BATFE publishes regulations:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_04/27cfr555_04.html
FYI: The feds care not at all about your certification status by NAR or TRA.
There may or may not be state and local laws. If state or local laws exist, they will most likely be based on the NFPA codes.
NFPA 1127 prohibits the sale of high power rocket motors to uncertified users. It provides an exemption for purposes of certification which is what you are talking about here. NFPA 1127 may or may not be the law where you live and/or fly.
NFPA 1127 says in Chapter 6:
"6.1 Prohibited Acts. The following activities shall be prohibited by this code:
... (9) Selling or transfer of a high power rocket motor or motor reloading kit to any person who is not a certified user, other than the possession, storage, or use of a single high power rocket motor or motor reloading kit for the purpose of user certification. ...
"
Don't ask for an online copy of NFPA 1127. This is a copyrighted document and a copy will run you over $20. If you are really curious about what is in it, go to your local library. They might have a copy and if the city has adopted the NFPA codes it will almost certainly have a copy. Sit down and read through the few pages. Pay no attention to that copier across the room. :-)
David Erbas-White wrote: > What is the actual law (with provided quote or cites) regarding purchase > of H and I motors? > > I realize that some of it may be up in the air as to whether BATFE > allows EZ-Access, etc., but as it stands now (as far as I understand the > current legal rulings), we are proceeding under the > assumption/interpretation that they ARE allowed. > > But here is my specific question -- what I 'understand' is that one can > purchase an 'H' motor for purposes of certifying at Level 1. And they > are apparently not supposed to purchase any others until they certify, > or until the certification attempt has failed. > > One is apparently also not supposed to FLY an 'H' motor or above unless > it is specifically for a certification attempt -- and in those cases it > would appear that everything is technically legal no matter how you look > at it, because the attempt must be supervised by someone who is already > legally qualified. > > So, is there a LEGAL reason why one cannot buy more than one 'H' motor > without certification, or is it 'tradition'? For example, I have two > different level 1 rockets for my attempt. They require two different > motors (diameter) because of the size of the rockets. I may have > 'hangar rash' on a rocket, so I'd like to have a backup plan available, > which is why I would want to have two engines. This would appear to > make sense, and would appear (to my mind) to be legal -- especially if > it was made clear during purchasing that these were for a level 1 attempt. > > However, if I'm going to a multi-day launch, and will attempt a > certification flight (and hope to succeed <G>), then I'd like to have a > few more motors available for the launch. And since there are often > delays in acquiring/shipping motors, it would make sense to get them > ordered in advance of the launch. > > So, what is that ACTUAL LAW that applies? Does the law state that one > can't FLY an 'H' until certified, or that one cannot physically BUY an > 'H' until certified? It doesn't seem that the latter could be the case, > since it appears that you are allowed to buy them for certification > attempts, but I honestly don't recall ever having seen it specfically > spelled out. > > Jerry, I already know about CFR dumpty-dump-de-dump, I'm asking folks > for OTHER interpretations. > > David Erbas-White

It's all defined in NFPA 1127. One motor for a cert. NFPA 1127 is basically the TRA HPR safety code, and has been adopted "indirectly" by some states.
This is really a question you can ask your motor vendor, and/or the person that will be doing your cert.
One thing I've heard of in the past, is buying the motors on line but shipping them to the person doing your cert. That way you bought the motors, but they're not actually in your possession.
If it's on site vendor, just order what you may need (so they'll have them) and only pick up one at a time.
Either way, it's good to line up a "cert person" a few weeks before your cert attempt, and they have help with the local process on stuff like this.
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David Erbas-White wrote:
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purchase
the
Correct, however ATF is a separate issue. What you're asking about is NFPA restrictions.
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can
they
certify,
As I understand it, that is correct.
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a
The best person to talk to about this is the vendor who will be at the launch. Every launch I've been to, there were motors available for cert flights, but actual practice may vary at other launches and with other vendors.
d