Flying to Canada to launch.

I want to get into high power. I would have done this years ago but, the 62.5g limit turned me away. I have been watching hybrids and now it
looks like the time to leap. However, knowing that it is the time to leap means that the ATF will now try to shut that down as well.
So I want to fly to Canada to launch a few times a year. Black Rock is a long drive for me and I don't look forward to it. It seams to me that just launching in countries that seam to have a clue (Canada, Netherlands, etc...) is the solution here. It is just like switching jobs. These countries seam to be going out of there way for us. I bet a meeting with some Canadian gov officials would go a long way to setting up a very nice relationship. Those in HPR make good money. To me the plane flight would be cheaper then my time. Plus, think of it. A hundred or so American engineers/scientists have to fly to Canada just to shoot their rockets off. What great PR for the ATF (I guess they need some new bad PR now after Ruby Ridge, Waco, Miami, etc...)
The fact that we even have a lawsuit going on with the ATF (the Federal Gov.) over rocketry tells me that this country is over for this hobby. Or, rather scientists/engineers in general. This would never, ever, happen in the 50s. Why fight it? You can't ever win. In all my years of consulting I learned one thing. When it is time to leave. Lets just go launch in Canada. They immediately become less relevant. Permanently leaving wouldn't be a bad idea either. Countries that are open to rocketry seam to be open to scientists/engineers as well. The US definitely isn't anymore.
German scientists put the US on the moon. Back then they had a choice. Go to Russia, or go to the US. They chose the US. Now it is time to just look at other options.
So anyone know of any launch clubs up in Canada?
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me thinks wickman needs a laxitive... who else rants about websites?
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dicen wrote:

What a sad, pathetic commentary on Amerika this is.
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Darrell D. Mobley wrote:

I think it's more a commentary on Americans. People want instant gratification. They don't realize that even the Revolutionary War took years. And it was years after that before our present government took shape. And we've seen a bloody civil war tear us apart. But our country and our system survives and works.
This week there was a court decision regarding FEMA's shoddy handling of the Katrina victims. FEMA lost. The judge ordered FEMA to explain those decisions so thousands of evacuees can understand the reasoning and decide whether to appeal. "I'm not looking for a doctoral dissertation," Judge Leon said. "I'm looking for a couple of paragraphs in plain English." Sound familiar?
Our systems works. Sometimes slowly. If we as a people would rather cut and run than fight for what is right, then we are responsible for what our country has become.
BTW, I have nothing against Canada. I flew at a launch near Quebec 10 years ago. Great bunch of people. From what little I know, they also consider rocket motors explosives. But I think they treat them differently than other explosives. Can someone who knows comment?
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Alex Mericas wrote:

I guess I see things differently. Yes, on ocassion the system does work, but by and large it is broken and needs some serious repair. I believe it is broken not only because Americans want instant gratification, but because we are apathetic and content to live in our own little comfort zones without caring for anyone else. We have completely lost the spirit of the Revolutionary age. Have you read the recent articles about identity theft and the Swift Co. meat packers? Seems our government agencies like the SSA and IRS track identity theft but are unable to notify law enforcement and fix the problems. Innocent victims have their financial lives ruined and nobody gives a rip because some agency gets more money if they allow it to go on. And what about the injunction Swift asked for (but didn't get) that claimed if the government continued the raids they could lose up to 40% of their work force? So companies, with the full knowledge and consent of our government agencies, facilitate identity theft because they get more money from it too. Government, business, and ordinary Americans all seem to think that as long as the identity theives don't get me, too bad about you. This is only one example - rocketry and the ATF is another - the list goes on and on. All the while people are getting ripped off, politicians in NY think they're doing something really important for society by banning trans fats. What a joke! What a joke! American government (and maybe even society) is broken, and real freedom is a thing of the past. And I seriously doubt that unless there is a radical shift in America, anything will get better. But I'm not going to run to anotther country, because I know of no other country that is more "free" than this one. Larry Lobdell Jr.
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Larry Lobdell Jr. wrote:

That's why volunteer community service is at an all time high? Because we don't care for anyone else?
You honestly think our society is worse than 100 years ago? Than 200 years ago?
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Alex Mericas wrote:

The morality gap in this country is a quantum leap compared to 100 years ago.
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Alex Mericas wrote:

When it comes to individual liberty, yes, I honestly think our society is worse than it used to be. But I never said our government is as bad as it could ever be.
I gave a specific case: identity theft, Swift, and the IRS/SSA. Is that good/bad/indifferent, and is it a sign of a breakdown in the American government or not? And what of the ATF and HPR? And NY's banning of trans-fats, as if that's doing something?
One of the reasons volunteer community service is at an all time high is because 100 years ago most people were too busy trying to eke out a living and had no time to volunteer. Besides, in those days everyone was already a community "volunteer" just by virtue of having a neighbor to do things with/for.
When I was a kid (45 years ago or so) every playground had a merry-go-round, and they were fun. Sure kids fell off and broke their arms, or worse, but they were still fun. Where are they now? Some people and lawyers decided to sue, so now they are no more. I wonder when someone will decide to ban trees because some kid will fall out of one and get hurt? Oh that's right - kids now have a PS3 to play with and don't climb trees.
This is not gloom and doom; it's reality. Every week there's a new instance of the erosion of personal freedom, often by the government, and usually for money. Larry Lobdell Jr.
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Alex Mericas wrote:

When it comes to individual liberty, yes, I honestly think our society is worse than it used to be. But I never said our government is as bad as it could ever be.
I gave a specific case: identity theft, Swift, and the IRS/SSA. Is that good/bad/indifferent, and is it a sign of a breakdown in the American government or not? And what of the ATF and HPR? And NY's banning of trans-fats, as if that's doing something?
One of the reasons volunteer community service is at an all time high is because 100 years ago most people were too busy trying to eke out a living and had no time to volunteer. Besides, in those days everyone was already a community "volunteer" just by virtue of having a neighbor to do things with/for.
When I was a kid (45 years ago or so) every playground had a merry-go-round, and they were fun. Sure kids fell off and broke their arms, or worse, but they were still fun. Where are they now? Some people and lawyers decided to sue, so now they are no more. I wonder when someone will decide to ban trees because some kid will fall out of one and get hurt? Oh that's right - kids now have a PS3 to play with and don't climb trees.
This is not gloom and doom; it's reality. Every week there's a new instance of the erosion of personal freedom, often by the government, and usually for money. Larry Lobdell Jr.
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Alex Mericas wrote:

When it comes to individual liberty, yes, I honestly think our society is worse than it used to be. But I never said our government is as bad as it could ever be.
I gave a specific case: identity theft, Swift, and the IRS/SSA. Is that good/bad/indifferent, and is it a sign of a breakdown in the American government or not? And what of the ATF and HPR? And NY's banning of trans-fats, as if that's doing something?
One of the reasons volunteer community service is at an all time high is because 100 years ago most people were too busy trying to eke out a living and had no time to volunteer. Besides, in those days everyone was already a community "volunteer" just by virtue of having a neighbor to do things with/for.
When I was a kid (45 years ago or so) every playground had a merry-go-round, and they were fun. Sure kids fell off and broke their arms, or worse, but they were still fun. Where are they now? Some people and lawyers decided to sue, so now they are no more. I wonder when someone will decide to ban trees because some kid will fall out of one and get hurt? Oh that's right - kids now have a PS3 to play with and don't climb trees.
This is not gloom and doom; it's reality. Every week there's a new instance of the erosion of personal freedom, often by the government, and usually for money. Larry Lobdell Jr.
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Larry Lobdell Jr. wrote:

Larry, the points about the new revolutionaries is well taken. The very essence of what America was founded on is now against the law. The Founding Father's created an environment where the citizens were the checks and balances against an out of control government. But today, if you want to even discuss those checks and balances, you endanger being labeled a terrorist and removed from society. You think you have any rights left? Stop paying your taxes and see how fast your so-called freedom is extinguished.
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Darrell D. Mobley wrote:

Why does everyone bring that example up? Where does it say that obeying laws is optional? The power to tax is specifically given to Congress. Break any law and you are at risk.
Checks and balances do work, but not instantly. We'll see in two years how serious the American voters were about change. And if Congress got the message. Congress is the key to all long-term change. And the voters have the power to topple Congress.
Don't believe change can happen? Remember the 55MPH National Speed Limit? Remember the 87% marginal tax rate? Remember Blue Laws? Remember the draft? All gone (ok, you still have to register for selective service).
If you were even half right about our rights being eliminated and the government quieting us, some of us would be missing today. Hey, wait a minute... JI, Izzy, Dancing Baby, oh my gosh!!!!
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Alex Mericas wrote:

Well, at least one of those mentioned, broke the law...(;-) As that James Taylor song goes, "Oh Mexico".
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Alex Mericas wrote:

Because it is a *real* example. Tax laws specifically prove that you do not own any real property. That is why the government can take it away from you with no real recourse on your part whatsoever.
The power to tax IS given to Congress. The power to tax without equal representation was originally not. The country was founded on the premise that federal representation was not a full time job, let alone a career. MONEY *bought* our current system and that is NOT going to change.
Amerika's current system will only change if and when it fails, not because Amerikans want it changed. You will never vote the federal government out of your life. Ever.
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Alex Mericas wrote:

I guess I see things differently. Yes, on ocassion the system does work, but by and large it is broken and needs some serious repair. I believe it is broken not only because Americans want instant gratification, but because we are apathetic and content to live in our own little comfort zones without caring for anyone else. We have completely lost the spirit of the Revolutionary age. Have you read the recent articles about identity theft and the Swift Co. meat packers? Seems our government agencies like the SSA and IRS track identity theft but are unable to notify law enforcement and fix the problems. Innocent victims have their financial lives ruined and nobody gives a rip because some agency gets more money if they allow it to go on. And what about the injunction Swift asked for (but didn't get) that claimed if the government continued the raids they could lose up to 40% of their work force? So companies, with the full knowledge and consent of our government agencies, facilitate identity theft because they get more money from it too. Government, business, and ordinary Americans all seem to think that as long as the identity theives don't get me, too bad about you. This is only one example - rocketry and the ATF is another - the list goes on and on. All the while people are getting ripped off, politicians in NY think they're doing something really important for society by banning trans fats. What a joke! What a joke! American government (and maybe even society) is broken, and real freedom is a thing of the past. And I seriously doubt that unless there is a radical shift in America, anything will get better. But I'm not going to run to anotther country, because I know of no other country that is more "free" than this one. Larry Lobdell Jr.
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I can't comment on how Canada handles HPR. I can't comment on what the ATF would think of such a thing as going out of country to fly HPR (I doubt they'd like it but I also don't think they could do anything about it)
I was reading up on USLVs (Unguided Suborbital Launch Vehicle) and the AST/FAA says that if you're an American citizen, it doesn't matter where you launch a USLV from, you still have to get a permit (or license, depending on what you are launching)
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ast/media/49_USC_Ch_701_updated.pdf
There are two government agencies that I fear. The IRS and the USPS (seriously, USPS postal inspectors have HUGE power...look into it)
I thought that with hybrids, you don't need a LEUP and there isn't a 62.5g limit. You still have to recover the rocket which normally means BP but other means exist. Fly hybrids and give the ATF the finger....sounds like a plan to me.
-Aaron
dicen wrote:

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Aaron wrote:

That is the status quo. The MSDS for N2O is available at http://www.airgas.com/documents/pdf/001042.pdf ATF not listed in the regulatory section. I couldn't find a MSDS for PVC pipe.
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Alex Mericas wrote:

The MSDS for potassium nitrate is available at http://www.skylighter.com/msds/POTASSIUM%20NITRATE%20MSDS.htm ATF not listed in the regulatory section. I didn't look for an MSDS on sucrose.
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<snip>

You're right, you don't.

They're just enforcing the rules. No need to give the ATF the finger, fly APCP within the rules. They spelled out how in that PAD NPRM of theirs.

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dicen wrote:

I think you have been taken in by the hysterical rantings on some web sites and rocketry forums. Netherlands embracing rocketry? You call an upper limit on HPR of 77 lbs for an HPR rocket embracing and more liberal than the US regulations? I don't. I can make a rocket three times that weight and fly it in the US no problem! Its illegal under the "embracing laws" of the Netherlands. Also, I have to have a member of an "approved" organization supervise my launch in the Netherlands as I'm not a member of TRA or NAR. Not a problem in the USA! I make my motor and rocket, get my FAA waiver and fly. As for Canada, ask an amateur rocketry guy in Canada about the liberal laws up there for people trying to make their own motors.
The truth is that the USA has the most liberal laws for amateur and HPR rocketry in the world. Now, this fact does not get website traffic and is not welcome with the "Lets feel sorry for ourselves crowd" flooding the forums with doom and gloom, but it is a more accurate picture.
John Wickman
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