Flying to Canada to launch.

You're right, you don't.

They're just enforcing the rules. No need to give the ATF the finger, fly APCP within the rules. They spelled out how in that PAD NPRM of theirs.

Now allow Joe modeler to keep a fair amount of composite propellant for personal use on hand and life would be perfect. Wanna keep a big pile of it around? Sure, I think some rules governing that would be in order. Right now a guy can't keep an M on hand for a once a year launch or a few H, I, J, K or L "road flare" grains for that matter. Don't forget the 1lbs. can of 4F we have to buy a reproduction flintlock rifle for in order to be actually legal. Bunch of baloney.

Kurt

Kurt

My ability to buy more than 62.5g of propellant. Sure I can get a LEOP but I can't store it even if I had one. So the ATF has effectively shut it down. So I am sure they don't like Hybrids going around them. They will stop people from selling Hybrid Motors and reloads soon enough. Make them require a LEOP and no one can keep them unless you live out in the country.

Note to everyone here. 20/20 or Nightline recently did a show where they bought a truck load of Fertilizer (Ammonium Nitrate) and parked it in a federal government building garage. The Oklahoma City bombing used Fertilizer and Diesel fuel to blow up an ATF building. If the ATF cared at all about that they would stop people from buying large quantities of Ammonium Nitrate without a LEOP or some kind of regulation. But,

20/20 showed that anyone can just go buy it. It is all industry regulated. The ATF can't touch the farm lobby. So the ATF harasses this little hobby.

No one is ever going to try to blow up an ATF building using solid rocket propellant. It is far too expensive. They will just use fertilizer and diesel fuel like they have in the past. Two major bombings (Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center) and anyone can still buy the stuff. This proves that the ATF doesn't even care about their own employees as they are the ones who died in the last one. If can organization doesn't even care about its own then it is really corrupt.

Like I said. I want to launch in Canada.

dicen

I disagree. There is no need for federal regulations on APCP used in Hobby Rocketry. When we win the lawsuit that's what well have. Local regulations will still prevail and storage may still be a problem; e.g. my city limits the amount of BP to 1lb outside of a magazine, 2lbs in a magazine, unless the building has a fire suppression system (sprinkler).

Oh, perhaps if you went to a launch and flew rockets instead of just participating in newsgroups.

Even if the ATF somehow managed to put PVC on the explosives list, we would still launch without permits the same way they've specified in the PAD NARM for APCP.

Or perhaps your dealer hasn't read that.

Well of course the BATFE doesn't care. The only care they have is to maintain their own existence hence why we rocket peoples are on their list. The BATFE needs to keep busy doing *something* to justify their existence.

Now, if higher ups in the gov food chain would realize this simple fact...

Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75

I have been flying rockets for 25 years. Just not high power. Does this PAD NARM allow me to store the reloads? How do I got out and launch without driving all the way to a club launch site (to buy them from someone with a LEOP)?

dicen

Oh heck I agree with you that I would like no restrictions on hobby rocketry but I would settle for something reasonable. If some pansies can't see letting someone stockpile 500lbs. of the stuff, then I could live with some rules.

On the other hand, if AP and or APCP is taken off the explosives list as a result of the lawsuit and it stands up on appeal, I'll be dancing with you Alex.

Kurt

Actually, it says you cannot buy and store -reloads- without a permit. Specifically it states that rocket motor reloads and assemblies are not Propellant Actuated Devices (PADs) for which a exemption exists. Had they qualified as PADs, then permits would not be required to purchase and use reloads. The NARM does not change or eliminate the PAD exemption (it does add words about propellant, but reloads were never PADs anyway).

I'm not sure I understand this statement. Are you not flying at the club field? If not you have FAA issues to deal with.

As mentioned before, you cannot buy a reload (or motor) without an LEUP. You can however purchase, transport and store a Propellant Actuated Device without a permit or special storage restrictions.

column on page two is a good read. Specially just before 'Proposed rule'.

I'm not sure how common it is but I bet there are (or would be without this ATF nonsense regulation) quite a few HPR "lone rangers." I launched HPR "privately" for several years when I lived in SD. I just filed the FAA waiver forms, got the waivers, and launched. For example every year I did a demo launch (EZI-65 and I161W) at our church's boy's club rocket launch. Loved the "wow factor" for the kids and dads. It wasn't until I moved to MI that I started launching with NAR/TRA clubs. Larry Lobdell Jr.