LEUP fear

Hi,
I don't wish to start a contentious thread but I have a quick straight forward question I think someone knowledgeable can answer. If I go to a club field to certify level 1. If it is a busy range, there is usually an engine vendor onsite, right? I certainly would be able to find that out before I travel.
I'm in both NAR and Tripoli as I know both groups are fighting the government so alliegence is not an issue.
I announce my intentions, go over the paperwork, buy an appropriate reload for a 29/180 or 29/240 RMS type engine and make a successful flight. Get the model back and everyone is satisfied.
Now, I go back home, fly with smaller legal motors, notify the FAA when I have a model above one pound and less than 3.3lbs. or > 62.5mg of propellant (I've seen some folks quote the law is saying the limit is 125mg here so please correct me if I am wrong. I realize that I may be.) Having fun.
I decide to go back to site I certified and want to fly the G and H motors I certified level 1 at. I show my paperwork and would I be able to buy, one at a time, motors and use them that day on the field and not take any home or would I be expected to produce an LEUP?
If one can do without an LEUP, in that case, that would be a work around although one would have to live within distance of a range where you have an on site vendor and the appropriate waivers.
I find it weird that theoretically I could load up my basement with a pile of BP and composite motors (less than G size) and the ATF wanks get upset about the engines in the Level one bracket. Heaven forbid I keep an H or I motor on hand. Geez.
Best regards, Kurt Savegnago

Kurt wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  
I'm not knowledgable, but I'll answer to the best of my understanding.
  Quoted Text Here  
Generally, yes. For example, yesterday at the Plaster City launch, Andy of What's Up Hobbies was on site. I can only dream of beginning to go through all the engines he stocks in my lifetime...
  Quoted Text Here  
Agreed. And though I went to a 'Tripoli' launch yesterday, there were both NAR and TRA members present, and they were happy to help me do my NAR L2 certification, even though it was a 'TRA' launch. In fact, I even overheard one of the members saying "We don't care about that s__t" when someone mentioned NAR vs. TRA.
  Quoted Text Here  
Certainly!
First, it's grams, not milligrams. Second, the limit for the FAA is 113 grams (4 ounces) or below requires no notification. Second, the 125 gram limit is where you can notify, but don't need a waiver. You need a waiver above 125 grams.
At the moment, I don't remember where the 62.5 gram limit comes in, I believe it has to do with transportation issues (grain size).
BTW, there are several 'H' engines under the 125 gram limit.
  Quoted Text Here  
This will depend on your vendor. It will also depend on the results of the court fight.
The 'generic' feel that I get these days is that 'Easy Access' motors (where there are separate grains under the weight limit) don't require a LEUP. This would allow you to get up to a J motor without one. The ultimate 'hope' would be to get APCP completely off the explosives list, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. And, of course, if we can ever get the court to rule in our favor in relation to the PAD exemption, you wouldn't need a LEUP.
  Quoted Text Here  
Depending upon your local laws, and your vendors interpretation of the LEUP requirements.
  Quoted Text Here  
It's the government. It doesn't have to make sense.
BTW, I don' t like folks making this argument -- it ultimately would lead the government to simply say "You're right -- you can't have BP motors either." I prefer the argument that you already have natural gas, gasoline, paint thinner, and lighter fluid in your garage.
David Erbas-White (did I mention I got my Level 2 yesterday???) <G>
  Quoted Text Here  

How the heck did I cancel my message? I did it by accident when I was trying to post a thank you for all the interesting replies. I didn't do it on purpose and am responsible for the body. It will be nice if the lawsuit gets settle in our favor and officially ends all the bullcrap We would all be happy then wouldn't we? (What the heck else could one argue about most vehemently?) ;)
Again, I apologize for erasing the core message and did so by mistake. I didn't know one could erase their own newsgroup message but b'gosh it disappeared.
Best regards, Kurt Savegnago
David Erbas-White wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  

Kurt wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  
Go to the source. 14 CFR Parts 101.1, and 101.21 through 101.25
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_05/14cfr101_05.html
  Quoted Text Here  

Kurt,
The best answer to your questions is: it depends who you're dealing with. I know that it's not a really rock-solid answer to your questions, but it is true in my experience.
Some vendors will sell you easy access motors if you're certifed, without LEUP, some won't. It depends on what the ATF has told the vendor to do. Certain folks here (you know who you are) will tell you different, but this is the reality of the situation.
Other vendors will sell to you at the launch site and sponsor you via what they would call "propulsion service". I use it all the time, and am greatful for the service. It's a band-aid solution, but hey, everyone who wants to gets to fly that way.

  Quoted Text Here  
That vendor is not a "victim" of the ATF (but perhaps of his own stupidity and timidity). He is either a lisencee or a non-lisencee. Either way they have the right (and duty) to read the regs to their agent, and the regional office if necessary, to STAND UP at the local level for the exemptions that exist, IN REALITY in regulation, right now.
Personal attacks on Jerry Irvine be damned.
List and publicize and ostracize non-compliant vendors.
It is the ONLY successful path forward.
And as you may well know it has not even been tried.
Jerry
"The way to begin a long journey is to take the first step."
  Quoted Text Here  

Like I said, you know who you are!

Kurt Apr 3, 7:08 am show options
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 14:08:37 GMT Local: Sun, Apr 3 2005 7:08 am Subject: LEUP fear
"If I go to a club field to certify level 1. If it is a busy range, there is usually an engine vendor onsite, right? I certainly would be able to find that out before I travel. "
Depends. One sit I go to has not had any venders, simply because there are no venders anywhere near there. Another site usually has venders. Contact the club before going.

Kurt wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  
What TRA and/or NAR local groups are in your geographical area and which ones have you visited or are a member of?
Fred

W. E. Fred Wallace wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  
Hi,
TRA #39 in the Quad Cities is 100 miles from me. Not too bad a drive. I think I will contact them first and see what the situation is. Tim Lehr of Wildman Rocketry is their president and from the looks of his website, I have no doubt that he would be a most knowledgeable person. Am a bit nervous of the RMS reloads. Have the 18 through 29mm set and I have a hard time visualizing what is important on reloading. I am hoping I could bring some smaller models or my 24mm DynaStar Rising Star or Stonebreaker or my Super Big Bertha I have modified with a 29mm motor mount, fiberglassed balsa fins and kevlar shock cord. I would think someone would be willing to demonstrate the proper way to reload. I did find a site by accident where a fellow took pictures step by step on how to do a reload. I think the bookmark is on my office computer. I couldn't find it in google when I was home. ARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!! Don't you hate finding a good site and forgetting to bookmark it. Thanks again.
Kurt Savegnago

Kurt wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  
Have a look here for some instructions:
http://www.rocstock.org/wizards/wiz.a24.rd.html
David Erbas-White

David Erbas-White wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  
Thanks,
I have that link. There was another link that had absolutely beautiful pictures and closeups of the components that I LOST! Dang it!
Kurt Savegnago

  Quoted Text Here  
Most flyers are doing just this above, for level 2 even.

Thanks for all the good advice. Hope we win the lawsuit.
Kurt Savegnago

  Quoted Text Here  
We already "won" the lawsuit (on the obvious).
TRA and NAR refuse to declare victory (especially TRA) and "live the life style.
ATF is going to change the rules in diametric opposition to their mission statement in revenge for NAR/TRA suing them.
Science be damned.
Jerry

Jerry Irvine wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  
No we have NOT! The judge made a ruling in our favor at one hearing, and contradicted it at the next hearing. I'm sure we will win it eventually, and I think anyone would be an idiot to go get a LEUP before the case is settled. But as someone once said, "it ain't over 'til it's over!"
  Quoted Text Here  
That's because they aren't idiots like you.
  Quoted Text Here  
So they say. I'll believe it when I see it.
  Quoted Text Here  
No, if they do it will be to get what they've been trying to do illegally until we stopped them.
So anyway, how's your valiant effort to change DOT requirements going? Surely you must have some great successes to report on that front, due to your vast knowledge of how to convince federal agencies that you are right and they are wrong.

  Quoted Text Here  
One cannot have a debate with a certified moron.

Jerry Irvine wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  
That's not going to stop us from trying.

  Quoted Text Here  
Sensationally. shhh!

Jerry Irvine wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  
going?
Great! Now you can tell us all about it. What have you accomplished other than getting a big fine? Are motor manufacturers now legally able to ship motors without hazmat, just by labeling them "model aircraft parts"?
You make yourself out to be such a great expert on how to change the requirements and enforcement of federal agencies, so let's see some proof of your methods, as applied to DOT. That $40k fine seems like a mighty odd way to get the ball rolling, but hey, you're the expert! Show us how well it worked! Show us what you've accomplished with DOT. Once you've proven how well it works, we can consider trying it out on the ATF.
˘