No Large Solid Motors?

Currently. There was an NAR certified F and G motor that used soemthing else. But not no more. ANd if you step into uncdertified land, there's other formulas out there still.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Good point. Nothing in HK724 will prevent the JBGTs from figuring out a way to regulate them next month... SB724 would permanently prevent this problem.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

And support the lawsuit, I think that might help too.

Sent in some extra with my renewal.

Joel. phx

What's in YOUR wallet?

SnORt! I didn't even think of that. Just pictured a NAR guy telling the other guy, "send in $5 bucks to support the lawsuit, it will help". Other guy says "nayy I'll wait n see". Behind them, a rushing group of Vikings wearing 'Another Trained Fighter' T-shirts.

D'oh! Sorry, no FUD, I was just confused. I realize now that you were referring to hybrid motors.

I agree. It's just not something everyone is interested in doing.

LOL!! (And a good point, too!)

"TheOutcast" wrote in message news:oNKUa.6284$ snipped-for-privacy@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...

Um, we can. Can you tell the difference in this branch of this topic where there's a friendly banter rather than scathing bile flowing hate filled messages of any "724" topic?

Well, that's simple. First you need to find out if your local fire marshal will allow you to store explosives within the city limits. Then you need to determine if there are other restrictions such as 500' between the magazine and an inhabited building as in Phoenix. Then, you need to apply all those rules to where you wish to place the magazine. Don't forget to check with the insurance company to see how your rates will go. Ok, if you can't get local approval, no point in talking to the feds about storage. If you have a local dealer with a LEDP who has a magazine, you at least have the option to pursue an LEUP without storage if you can secure written permission of the dealer (to store or buy back). Or perhaps another club member lives in the outback and has a magazine which you have permission to use. If you have a club member who will take possession of the motor and ensure it is used property, that might work without an LEUP. If you fly on your own, wave bye-bye to HPR APCP. Look into your own motors or hybrids.. If you can place a magazine somewhere, now you need to make sure it will met the feds specs. The orangebook subpart K, 'storage' is the place to start.

Now none of this takes into account exemptions. Blackpowder, igniters, squibs,... are also considered low explosives that must be stored and only used under permit. ExCePT. Blackpowder is excluded if you use it in a antique firearm (musket or cannon). Some igniters are exempt because they're included with exempt motors. The motors are exempt because they A)fall under a certain propellant weight class (roughly 'G') or B)were certain DOT numbers once excluded, but the exclusion was incorrectly dropped when numbers changed to international codes.

I would be remiss if I did not point out that 55.141 Exemptions (subpart H), a(8) exempts: "(8) Gasoline, fertilizers, propellant actuated devices, or propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purposes." Of which NAR/TRA asserts that a rocket motor is a 'propellant actuated device' and thus all rocket motors would be exempt (and on this alone you should continue to support the lawsuit, please send in $5, $10, $20).

This branch started when someone way way back said: "To purchase and INDEPENDENTLY posses high-power rocket motors legally, you need an ATFE Low Explosives Users Permit (LEUP) and a means to store them..." Which is "1/2 true" in as far as it applies to propellants listed on the list of explosives (ACPC), but not true in regards to other propellants (hybrids, candy, AN). While you cannot {currently} purchase 'certified' candy or AN motors, manufacturing techniques have made the construction of rocket motors far less than rocket science. One can also debate whether 'AN explosive mixtures' and "potassium nitrate explosive mixtures' include propellant. APCP is listed in addition to 'AP explosive mixtures', which to me implies they didn't feel propellant is an 'explosive mixture'.

It was also said that APCP is the 'ideal' propellant in both manufacture, storage, and use. I'm not sure that can be disputed. It's downfall is that it (according to popular understanding from federal agents) requires an LEUP for storage and use. I consider that less than ideal. AN and Candy are 2 propellant types which require home mixing which presents an additional possible fire hazard. Both pack less punch per pound than AP, though AN is perdy darn close. AN has a weak point in that it uses magnesium, which requires a hazmat fee to ship as fine powder. Magnesium presents the fire danger in AN mixing. The key is to not create a dust cloud. Candy has the issue that it is poured as a liquid, after heating. Is the danger there obvious? Epoxy/candy mixtures are still being studied, which would eliminate the heating requirement (except you still have epoxy heating to deal with). So, once safely made, they still don't stack up. Candy is brittle and bouncing around your range box could obtain cracks which increase surface burn area, increasing pressure,... cato (epoxy would help eliminate that issue). So padded storage/transport and remelt any dropped grains. AN in unaltered form has a habit of swelling as it freezes. Each time it does, it doesn't shrink back down and can crack. Certainly not ideal, but don't let it freeze, or use the more expensive PSAN which reduces(eliminates) that swelling. Here's the kicker, both these propellants use an oxidizer which is $15 for a 50 POUND bag! So for the little extra time spent in construction, you get to fly quite a bit more on the same nickel. The other plus is say you have an rocket for which the motor type was discontinued. Bummer, toss the rocket, or make a motor?

Hybrids, the other legal ticket, are also not as efficient. They require electronics and a nitrous supply. The tanks mean longer motor tubes and thus not ideal for short stubby rockets. Clubs can certainly help with the GSE and the sound they make is well worth the effort. Cost per flight is less as you get into the larger motors. Even including the GSE cost and nitrous, 3 M flights on Hypertek will break even with commercial APCP, and the 4th will be 1/2. Cleanup on Hypertek is a breeze. Holds, leaks and misfires can cost in nitrous.

Donating to the legal fund will help everyone on that PAD count alone. What's $5, a big mac meal? $10, section of 4" body tube? $20? Ok, 20 bucks is 20 bucks. Links to NARs donation page and the legal fund raffle:

AN:

OK...but my brain still hurts..

sounds like you need to be a street lawyer to do this but...

I intend to goto a launch and see what's up, what kinda support I will get for the dues, magazine rental, law clarification in simplese, etc.

O Ya...and get on a them there Rokit Syantist Shurts.

ps What are the laws on using Contra Terrene as a propulsive source?

Forget all the brain-cramping 'help' offered here. You've got the right idea... go to a launch and have a good time. Then go back home and build some rockets. Come back the next time and have someone help you buy the motor, prep it, and launch it. It's that simple. We do it all the time around here. And it's legal.

-John DeMar NAR #52094

Thanx for the advice!

I am still discouraged by all the restrictions...heck...I remember when I was a wee sprout we had fireworks that really blew stuff up! Toilets, kitties, trash cans, car tires, etc ;-] now it sounds like you need a permit for a friken hair dryer...llawmakers...They Will Make You Safe...cant even legally buy/use sparklers around here now!

Of course I would be nervous to be at a launchsite where Jethro just chugged a 12 pak with Cooter and Bubba and are "G> >

Been there, seen that. :) Most of what makes this hobby safe is the general self-regulating nature of organized groups who'd like to keep their landowner happy and allow everyone to have fun. The NAR and TRA safety codes are a good start. Common sense picks up from there.

That reminds me of a Tripoli launch I went to 12 years ago where someone showed up with a Kentucky Fried Chicken bucket as a boattail on his first attempt at a high power rocket. I can't remember now if it flew well or not!

-John

Stop banging it against the monitor,.... ;)

The most important thing is to have fun. The second most important thing is to be safe. The 2 most important things are to have fun, be safe, and fly rockets. The 3 most,....

I only know of 4 planetary systems where it's banned. You'll have to check with local earth officials to determine applicable laws there.

;)

Joel. phx

I am listening.

Bob's position clearly IS:

yikes!

I think I will go with Mag Bottle Pinch Fusion - less restrictions!

permits...is it

I understand your point on BP, but want to hear your spin on how much easier and safer toxic APCP is to make than Sorbitol candy.

Kevin Patterson

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (TOOLS R US) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@mb-m28.aol.com:

Can you cite a comparative study of the toxicity of both propellants? Especially since APCP is not water soluble, while "Sorbitol candy" is?

len.