Re: Big Brother is watching us

The part that gets to me is how ignorant they are: I doubt any commercial airliner normally climbs at a rate of climb sufficient to arm a Perfectflite altimeter, (or any barometric altimeter for that matter), especially, a pressurized baggage or passenger compartment. Additionally, use of a copperhead igniter with said altimeter, further indicates an increased level of ignorance.

The fact that they didn't is ominous: it suggests that they're more interested in describing us as "part of the problem" than enlisting us as "part of the solution"!

-dave w

Considering that the leadership in rocketry primarilly annoy authorities and turn in people to them, it seems a rational regulator would mainly see a "problem" (series of problems?) and not a partner.

When I negotiated a resolution to the HPR "problem" with the ATF reps at a NFPA meeting, the entire Sport Rocket caucus couldn't be less interested.

Too bad, so sad.

Jerry

Can't say I didn't try. Can't say I wasn't in the room. Can't say I didn't have access to the right folks.

Poor, ignored, fraudulent, liar jerry.

First of all, if they are really looking for a pressure equivalent to 25,000 feet, they will be looking for a long time. Regulations require that the passenger cabin never exceed about 8,000 feet at any time. Since the baggage compartment and passenger cabin are pressurized to the same altitude, the altimeter will never see anything close to the 25,000'.

Then of course there is the issue of the altimeter's liftoff and apogee detection algorithms. The altimeter is looking for a quick decrease in pressure to indicate liftoff and slight increase or low rate of decrease to indicate apogee. It isn't looking for a specific altitude.

Because the airplane climbs slowly (with respect to rockets anyway) it is highly likely that the apogee algorithm would go off long before the plane reached cruising altitude. Assuming that the pressure transients that occur when the cabin is first pressurized didn't set it off first or that it ever detected liftoff. I would think that this would require custom firmware for the altimeter.

The altimeters used in the hobby to control deployment simply are not suitable devices for this purpose. They could possibly be altered but anyone capable of that is fully capable of building something from parts purchased at Digi-Key, Allied, Mouser, or any of a thousand other places.

Initiators can be improvised from almost anything. Including Christmas tree lights.

Scott wrote: > Spring training season has brought around another batch of Homeland > Security stuff at work. This year's production on Improvied Explosive > Devices (IED) use by terrorists was sponsored by the TSA Explosives > Unit and the FAA and sent out through the DHS to those of us in the > emergency response business. Some may be suprised at how closely these > folks are looking at the hobby rocket community and the toys that we > use. Of note in this year's presentation were a terrorist's design > with a Perfectflite miniAlt/WD set to trigger an IED placed in a > commercial airliner's baggage compartment when the plane reached about > 25,000 feet and the use of ematches, Copperhead igniters, and AG-1 > flashbulbs as the initiators for improvised blasting caps in such > devices. I'll probably be shot for posting this "restricted > information", but I'll just claim my First Amendment rights... assuming > it is still in effect. This might explain some of those guys in trench > coats and mirrored glasses that hang out near your favorite hobby shops > or flying fields. >

.....or cell phones.....why improvise or take a chance at failure when something exists that's near guaranteed? This government should start looking at the obvious.

Chuck

Which is trivial for a well organized and funded group like Al Queda.

So our loss of rights is a total waste of time AND a violation of our constitutional rights.

But if they control rocket parts they can testify to congress they are doing something. Since they have no feedback and control loops installed, and action no matter how counterproductive fulfills their charter and mission.

Remember? They never simply locked the doors before 9-11 despite being asked very vigerously and frequently by several other countries to do so.

Jerry

Those folks have an effective lobby. We have Mark Bundick and his buddy.

Folks trying to offer something effective (ie Wickman-Enzi) are sabotaged by the above folks.

One of those two groups includes a senate sponsor BTW.

Jerry

Christmas tree

Correct. This thing smells of a political scam. Someone has concocted scenarios that sound plausible to those who don't know any better. These scenarios specifically mention several items specific to rocketry, while apparently ignoring common non-rocketry sources which are better suited to the task. The only reason anyone would do this is to promote some kind of anti-rocketry agenda.

It's exactly the same thing the ATF did when they told the Senate that hobby rockets could take out tanks and passenger aircraft.

Wickman's bill was sabotaged by his own impatience. It might have worked if he could have quietly had it tacked onto some other major bill, which was his original plan. But he couldn't wait, so he tried to push it through as a stand-alone bill. As such, it was bound to fail. There was no way to slip it through unnoticed, and the very first committee it had to go through was headed by the guy who was most likely to oppose it!

Exactly my take and what prompted me to post this FYI. The presentation in question did show other common items in addition to the rocketry stuff. They had cell phones, GPS units, and makeshift mechanical barometric devices such as a container composed of two nested and capped tubes that would slide apart as the altitude increases until they made a mechanical electric contact at one end. They also had a number of items that have actually been used in successful airline bombings in other areas of the world, including the notorious shoe bombs as well as bombs that activated via wrist watches and other common methods such as simple timers, including one that used a mechanical egg timer (hey, what's that ticking sound?). Many of the items were feasible, but I started to lose faith when they had the picture of the altimeter (image lifted directly from the Perfectflite website, including the arrows showing what the parts are) followed by pictures of ematches and a package of Copperhead 8" igniters still in the plastic store display packaging, then they show a picture of an AG-1 flashbulb soldered to a pair of wires. At that point I'm thinking to myself that no one at the FAA or TSA has actually spent $100 for that altimeter and hooked it up to a Copperhead igniter to see if they could get a blasting cap to fire. They lost a lot of credibility with me at that point, even though all the technical information on the various explosives throughout the rest of the presentation was all accurate.

There was one other little item in a separate explosives training video provided by the BATFE that also got to me. While talking about low explosives, they covered the realm of powder mixtures including black powder and smokeless powders. They sure to like to show a can of Red Dot every time they talk about powders. Anyhow, they talked about how easy it is for someone to access these "bomb making materials" and they show an old white-haired guy with glasses wearing brand-new and pressed woodland camo BDU's with a white baseball cap picking up several cans of smokeless powders off a shelf in a gun shop. I just about fell out of my chair at the blatant "Waco/Ruby Ridge/Gun Nut" stereotyping they played out on that one. Just about enough to make you sick and how these people view the citizens that they are supposed to be protecting.

-Scott

I'm counting on the BATFE to ban them.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

That would be a violation of my 1st Amendment Rights.

WHere did you learn to speak light bulb?

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

I think you could rig a menorah to initiate an explosive device too...

"Scramjets - An ingenious answer to a non-existent problem."

Speaking of big brother watching..

When two directly involved people tell you the same thing, perhaps it is not mere mosaic after all.

Jerry