So am I legal?

On 30 Oct 2004 10:57:12 -0500, kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) wrote:


I recently felt jerked around on my renewal by an inspector. One call donw to DC fixed it. I did make it clear that I wanted to follow regs - as soon as someone could show me what they are.
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Brian McD. wrote: << Firstoff, I haven't heard of a single case of the ATF enforcing their rules on people (as far as rocket motors go). I don't want to hear any of that crap about Jerry Irvine and the DOT fines. That was the DOT, not the ATF, and is therefore beyond the scope of this message. If I should ever hear that somebody has been busted for having an H128 without a LEUP, then I will be concerned.>>
I agree!
<< Secondly, when you get down to the level of individual agents, NOT THE BUREAUCRACY, do you really think that somebody at the ATF is going to want to drive out to the middle of nowhere on a Saturday or Sunday to bust a few guys out flying rockets?>>
When and if the ATF busts anyone, it'll be dealers. Going after individual flyers would be difficult and would have far less impact. As for people who say, "Am I going to get busted for these motors I have now," well that's just stupid. Do they think the ATF has bugged the homes of everyone in the country, and knows what motors you have before you tell them?
<< The apes at the head of the Bureau can scare us all they want, but the actual people who do the work probably won't do anything. The ATF has better things to with its manpower do than to actively go after us.>>
I wish the ATF would figure that out. They do seem to be wasting plenty of time and manpower on enforcing/inspecting LEUP holders.
<< The "rockets as missiles" video was a result of us making the leadership mad.>>
Actually, it was the result of a certain individual's misguided attempt to push a rocketry exemption through Congress prematurely.
<< This whole mess could have been avoided if we had not got involved with the ATF in the first place.>>
To do that, we would also have to have avoided any involvement with the NFPA.
<< Rocketeers are amateur scientists! We know that APCP is not an explosive! We know that in the grand scheme of things, the amount of propellant we typically use is insignficant (think about how much propellant is in a NASA booster). We kept asking them if what we were doing was OK, and each time, they gave us a stricter interpretation of the rules.>>
Scientific fact is irrelevant to legal fact, as the ATF has proven. There are items on the explosives list that are not even low explosives, such as igniters.
<< This case should have been put to rest 10 years ago.>>
How? By giving in and letting the ATF regulate us to death? What would that have accomplished?
<< Things are not as bad as they seem. Just get on with it fly your rockets. >>
I agree. No matter how bad things get, until the ATF actually stops me from flying, I will continue to fly. There's no reason not to.
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Yes, vendors don't have it as easy as fliers because they are higher up in the supply chain and therfore easier to target. If it should ever come down to a worst-case scenario (I'm not even going to speculate as to what that might be) we will still be able to fly HPR rockets. Alternatives to the current commercial motors do exist, whether it be ANCP, sugar, epoxy, asphalt, Zn/S, hybrids, biprops, or steam. Pretty much all of these options can be, and have been to some extent, commercialized and scaled to the appropriate size (except for the very small rockets, which would be exempt anyway).
Under the current rules, EX rocketry with APCP is pretty much exempt as long as the propellant is for your own use. There is no commerce involved. Despite what some may say, the ATF will never be able to enforce thier rules upon EX rocketeers. There is no paper trail for them to follow and the motor is pretty much burned soon after it is made.

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down
options
long
...and you don't transport them on public roadways.
Joel.

rules
motor
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Brian/Joseph McDermott wrote:
some snipped.

Actually, the ATF agrees with that, as long as the "materials" are properly stored prior to use. No permit, no logging of materials, but safe storage in a proper magazine prior to use is required. (if not immediately used)
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

Nope.
http://v-serv.com/atf/HPR.12-03.p33.jpg
No.
But you know very little about regulatory matters.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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This should be in the FAQ!

oops!
http://v-serv.com/atf/HPR.12-03.p33.jpg
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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According to TRA and NAR who suggest following illegal internal BATF rulings (not the law itself) until their lawsuit is settled (which has only 5000 citizens represented out of 271 million, then yes.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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bit eimer wrote:

You know, the details of compliance and certification and the lawsuit, ad infinitum, ARE confusing. But, I think, the root causes of all this are being overlooked. It's not the chemistry, IMHO.
Schumer, Lautenberg, and Moschella made it quite clear, I thought, that explosives and propellants were NOT the real issues to the Feds; rockets are. The NFPA is an insurance advocate concerned with liability issues; they are worried about possible payouts on claims. BATFE is only concerned with maintaining administrative law power and authority in order to justify their continued existence after the big split; they don't want an exemption to ursurp their regulatory power.
We are being affected by many forces, yet seem to be fixated upon, or lost within, the details of motor regulation. We can't seem to keep the forest in view.
SpaceShipOne just won the X-prize. Civilian participation in space development is at a new beginning. The public has an ear turned towards private aerospace right now. How are we capitalizing on it?
Geez, I mean the X-prize winner used a hybrid motor. What a way to promote hobby rocketry and hybrids. They reached "space", not because of government funding or national effort, but through an understanding of rockets, among other things.
It is the VERY example of the benefit of sport rocketry to the nation. Its the "I told you so" comeback to ignorant regulators and regulations. It is the archetypical justification for our sport, beyond simple fun. Who will promote and further private sector space development? New blood interested in space and rockets. It is not just NASA's game any more. It demonstrates that ideas and interest are more powerful than big budgets, that rocket science is not the domain of only a few. It shows the positive side of our sport and our endeavors.
SS1 demonstrated that innovation and new ways of thinking are what makes things previously impossible, possible. Mr. Rutan and his team have lowered the aerospace bar forever, have generated a "space connection" closer to the masses than ever before.
THIS is what we should be promoting and expanding upon. We need a generation of rocket scientists to finish what Burt and Steve started. We need to throw SS1 into the faces of ignorant legislators and ask for their support in advancing private aerospace by encouraging it, not killing it off.
Its the ideal time for sport rocket entities and enthusiasts to align themselves in a cooperative effort with these fledgling private aerospace companies to promote and advance private space development. Scaled Composites has planted the rally flag, we need to gather around it.
--
Gary Bolles

summum jus, summa injuria est
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<< We need to throw SS1 into the faces of ignorant legislators and ask for their support in advancing private aerospace by encouraging it, not killing it off. >>
The people who want to regulate rocketry don't care. They're the kind who think all power should be in the hands of the government, not the people.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

Or Tripoli.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:05:41 -0700, "bit eimer"

Hey, welcome to my situation! I have one of those 29/40-120 casings. I love that thing. It's lot's of fun to use and I have had maybe 100 successful flights with it. But it hasn't been used in about 5 years. Why? Can't buy reloads for it anywhere. We had 5 hobby stores close around here in the last few years. The closest one is over 50 miles away. Can't even buy Estes motors anywhere but Walmart anymore.
So my advice is, if you can get away with using and can find reloads easily, use that sucker for all it's worth. I certainly miss flying mine.
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Both Commonwealth and ehobbies have 29mm reloads available. Yes, I'd rather get them from a local brick-and-mortar operation, but they ARE available.
David Erbas-White
Ookie Wonderslug wrote:

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Ookie Wonderslug wrote:

Those reloads are readily available via mail-order.
-Kevin
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When you only have an active market of 5000 buyers, dealer distribution is not supported. When you have a manufacturer who is always capital crippled, even if there is a market, he cannot sell into it.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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