A modest proposal... or Jerry Irvine saves the Universe

Assuming Jerry has the stones and a few bucks that is.
To give Jerry the chance to be the hero that saves rocketry, sticking a fork
in the eye of Tripoli and grinding his detractors into the dust like so many irrelevant stains along the way, I present the following scenario for RMR's amusement:
Step One: Consummate the unnatural union with Iz. That's to say, GIVE ARSA the money to start their own cert program.
Step Two: In parallel with step one, ARSA negotiates reciprocity with CAR.
Step Three: Jerrymotors (tm) are submitted to ARSA for certification.
Step Four: ARSA certs Jerrymotors(tm). (assuming. . .)
Step Five: CAR certs Jerrymotors(tm) by reciprocal agreement.
Step Six: CAR cert requires TRA and NAR reciprocate and cert the motors.
Step Seven: Tripoli refuses to recognize the reciprocal certification from CAR and implodes in a greasy cloud of purple smoke.
Step Eight: NAR honors the CAR cert but Bundick attempts honorable seppuku. Fails but posts repeatedly to RMR blaming J.I. and Wickman for destroying rocketry in the U.S.
Step Nine: Jerry Irvine owns rocketry.
Step Ten: J.I. attempts to deliver the Jerrymotors(tm) without LEMP.
Step Eleven: (multiple choice) <a> Jerry's been right all along and we all win. <b> Jerry's been full of shit all along and rocketry is destroyed forever.
Step Twelve: (multiple choice) <a> Jerry Irving, Rocket God. <b> Jerry Irving, Rocket Goat.
There it is Jerry, your very own Twelve Step Program. If everything you claim is true, you can't lose. You got what it takes to pick up the ball and run with it? No whining, no excuses, no blame. JUST FREAKIN' DO IT! Assuming you can, assuming you do, we'll talk about the lifetime supply of Jerrymotors(tm) that you'll be falling over yourself to offer me as a modest token of your gratitude.
Cheers,
TK
p.s. ObPreemptiveStrike: Jerry I'm neither anonymous or a troll. Name is real, email works for anyone who hates whitespace, and all I want to see happen is for my son to grow up with more than BP to fly. Help him out or STFU.
XOXOXO
-- Cogito ergo Bibo
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I'll have to turn off Jerry's killfile for this one. ;-)
Stones

fork
many
RMR's
ARSA
CAR.
from
seppuku.
all
modest
is
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<< I present the following scenario for RMR's amusement: Step One: Consummate the unnatural union with Iz. That's to say, GIVE ARSA the money to start their own cert program. >>
Your plan falls apart at the first step -- ARSA doesn't believe in motor certs, so they'd never start their own cert program. The whole purpose of ARSA is to avoid motor certs.
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RayDunakin wrote:

this is accurate

this is speculation
it is accurate to say that ARSA has no intention of conducting a certification program
amateur rocketry is principally user-engineered rocketry, and analogous to what the orgs call 'experimental' rocketry, the motors cannot be certified in the conventional sense.
they can be recognized as having specific constituents with known properties, accompanied by results of the builder's propellant and motor testing (strand and static tests)

this is grossly inaccurate
ARSA's "whole purpose" is to to act as an enabler for amateur rocketry
from http://www.space-rockets.com/arsa
"The Amateur Rocketry Society of America's (ARSA) goal is to enable US citizens to enjoy all forms of amateur rocketry. Our local societies permit amateur rockets to fly along side high power and model rockets at the same site and at the same time. There is no certification process or requirement for rocket motors or flyers."
- iz
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If ARSA is not the right group, why not work with ISEA (I think those are the right letters) started by Carl Blood?
I'm new to this debate, and I can't see why there is so much anger. And making references to BOD meetings over 10 years old seems silly to me. I, for one, want to buy USR motors and so I can't see why Jerry Irving and NAR or TRA can't negotiate (with concessions on both sides) a reasonable outcome. The very recent BOD minutes for NAR gave the impression that they were using minor technicalities to prevent certification, ie, they weren't really trying. And some of Jerry's requests seemed wholely unhelpful also.
All this makes no sense to me.... It should be in EVERYONE's best interest to have as many motor manufacturers as possible. Right!??
Take care,
Ferrell Wheeler
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Once a very long long time ago posted something similar to tone and content to your very reasonable post above... After reading RMR for a few years I'm convinced there will be a lasting peace in the middle East with the Israel and the Arab countries united against terrorism BEFORE TRA / NAR & USR learn to talk to each other in a meaningful way with respect to rocketry. As for who's fault it is..... At this point I have NO IDEA.. and who cares... if the mission is to promote rocketry in a positive manner... Move forward... and leave the past in the past..... where it belongs......
Your IDEA is GREAT.and I hope someone in a position to act upon it does so in a way that will help....
Bobby B
In my opinion NAR / TRA need to be doing everything in their power to ASSIST rocket mfg's to support the hobby and manufacturers with radically different ideas with respect to regulation / certification should tone things down a bit to make it easier for them to help them instead of challenging them at every word .....COOPERATION & PREPARATION = SUCCESS
Just my thoughts.........
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On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 16:54:12 GMT, "bobbyb"

Optimist.
Zooty
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On 18 Jan 2004 07:03:27 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net (Ferrell Wheeler) wrote:

Maybe it's not in the best interest of the motor-manufacturers themselves... after all, it's in THEIR best interest to make money, and the best way to do that is to have a corner on the market. This is accomplished by eliminating all competition and thus obtaining a monopoly. ;-)
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LEN
I respectfully disagree.... competition breeds innovation, low prices, better manufacturing techniques etc. Monopoly's breed , slow development, high prices, and no need to improve manufacturing techniques which mean prices by default will ONLY rise out of pace with the market.
Recent times have brought......
1- AMW hit the ground with a GREAT theme and awesome color and performance Latest Blue Baboon reloads are LOUD and "BIG TIME" GO FAST MOTORS... Try one..... you'll like it......... 2- Ellis Mountain has TINY little G motors that seem to burn FOREVER [ G35 ] The H50-6 is a super L1 cert motor...... H48 can put little rockets in ORBIT 8+ sec burn time in a 38mm SU YAHOO! ...... OK exaggerating a bit on that one with respect to orbit..... BUT DAMN 8+ sec is a long time going UP....... 3- CTI has a Plug and PLAY assembly so EZ that my grandmother could fly them.... K660 has KICK ASS performance... Smokey Sam, Is there anything that produces more smoke than a SS reload???? 4- Aerotech has a motor FOR ANY rocket.... in any delay, propellant in SLOW MED FAST and OMG she's gonna blow.....J, W, R, T 5- Apologies to those I did not mention... I'm unfamiliar with your motors so I did not comment on them.....
Each mfg has a niche and can make money with their innovation. Do you think we would have enjoyed this variety if we only had one mfg?????
Hybrid system are on deck, so far I like the performance. I'm sure there will be more great things to come....
Just my thoughts........ Bobby B
(Ferrell Wheeler)

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On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 00:10:29 GMT, "bobbyb"

What can I say...? I'm a cynic. ;-)
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<< The very recent BOD minutes for NAR gave the impression that they were using minor technicalities to prevent certification, ie, they weren't really trying. >>
Why should Jerry not be required to meet the same standards as other manufacturers?
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In article snipped-for-privacy@mb-m05.aol.com, RayDunakin at snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote on 1/19/04 1:32 PM:

Because he deserves special treatment.
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Agent Smith wrote:

(this anonymous poster is using an ISP in the area of St. George, Utah)
- iz
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In article 8TYOb.130967$ snipped-for-privacy@twister.nyc.rr.com, Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed at snipped-for-privacy@acceptable-gains.net wrote on 1/19/04 3:29 PM:

Ah, the Jerry protection squad TO THE RESCUE!
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote in message

To me it looks like Jerry is getting special treatment.... everyone is going out of their way to make sure USR is not certified. If you read the text of the NAR BOD, they weren't trying to help USR become certified. When things were done technically wrong they could have called him up and told him what the problem was and figure out together how to make it right, not just dismiss him over some technicallity.
That is how humans should act towards each other, with good faith and a willingness to make things happen that are in the best interests of all.
Ray, I don't understand your steadfast dislike of Jerry Irving. Don't you think that NAR or TRA, if they wanted to, could make it so that USR motors could be certified? I can't believe otherwise. This is just silly.
Take care,
Ferrell Wheeler Sunderland, MD
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<< Don't you think that NAR or TRA, if they wanted to, could make it so that USR motors could be certified?>>
Perhaps, but why should they lower the standards just for him? Heck, if they _wanted_ to they could throw out the standards altogether and just let anyone stuff some chemicals into a piece of pipe and call it a motor, and sell it to kids on the playground or ship it to strangers through the mail.
Don't you think that, if Jerry wanted to, he could meet the same requirements as everyone else? What's the point of even having standards if you're going to lower them whenever someone whines about it online instead of actually doing it?
Why should it be up to TRA/NAR to change and not Jerry?
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| << I present the following scenario for RMR's amusement: | Step One: Consummate the unnatural union with Iz. That's to say, GIVE ARSA | the money to start their own cert program. >> | | Your plan falls apart at the first step -- ARSA doesn't believe in motor certs, | so they'd never start their own cert program. The whole purpose of ARSA is to | avoid motor certs. |
Y'all really think so?
<WEG>
Care to bet a case of your favorite sparkling beverage on it?
Iz's response doesn't exactly slam the door on it and just for grins, here's some more food for thought.
Item: Without MR and HP to bring in fresh blood, AR, already a tiny niche, will wither away completely outside of the odd university.
Item: John Wickman knows this.
Item: John Wickman has already proved he's not afraid to seize the initiative when it comes to protecting his and his perception of rocketry's best interests, his interceding with Senator Enzi demonstrates this clearly.
Item: If TRA and NAR hadn't done such a world-class Keystone Cops job of trying to get out in front of the issue to claim ownership and glory, Wickman and Senator Enzi *might* well have succeeded.
<utter speculation and extrapolation>
Item: Reading between the lines, I don't think that Mr. Wickman has an abundance of love and fuzzy glowing feelings over TRA and NAR's conduct.
Item: A smart, tough, motivated man just might try again. Possibly in a way that would leave the two rocketry organizations at the top of his fecal roster looking sillier than usual.
</US&E>
Is Mr. Wickman willing to take a course of action that he thinks is in the best interests of /all/ rocketry? Absolutely.
Is Mr. Wickman going to buy into JerryLogic(tm)? There's the rub. . .
If he does, is my scenario outside the realm of possibility? Absolutely not.
Next!
TK
-- Cogito ergo bibo
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On 18 Jan 2004 05:27:06 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

Possibly true, but what we need is ARSA to certjify USERS, with non expireing certs, withour requiring expensive memberships or fees. Hopefully The NAR can do this as an outreach program at least utill ARSA gets up to speed on user certs.
Alan
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<< Possibly true, but what we need is ARSA to certify USERS, with non expireing certs, withour requiring expensive memberships or fees. >>
ARSA has clearly stated their desire to not certify motors or flyers. Although it's possible that position might someday change, it seems unlikely. The minute they start certifying anything, they open themselves up to liability concerns. And if they have to acquire insurance to protect themselves from liability, who will pay for it if there's no membership fee?
Face it folks, there's no "free lunch".
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RayDunakin wrote:

there is no membership requirement specified in NFPA 1127 to obtain or maintain certification
- iz
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