A modest proposal... or Jerry Irvine saves the Universe

As usual. Iz, repeating something over and over doesn't make it so.

thanks Bob for that historical information.....I know I can always count on you to provide historical context..... shockie B)

hi Glen: I'm sorry that you found our email conversations useless.....8( I thought we had developed a understanding of why I was complaining.....I guess not....

its not my job to do work that we already have people to do that work..... its not my responsibility to volunteer to do work when they already have somebody to do that work

As Far as KY NFPA law goes, I had a email conversation with the KY State Fire Marshall. He was under the mistaken impression that the NFPA 11xx codes were not adopted in KY. It now appears that his impressions was wrong, because NFPA 1 which referrences the NFPA codes was adopted in full in

10.2002. He's currently looking into the situation and I await further email correspondance with him...The Ky SFM office is an appointed office and is usually filled whenever we get a new governor.....we just got one......SO there isn't a lot of continuity in this position....

227.700 "Fireworks" defined -- Exceptions.

The term "fireworks" shall mean any composition or device for the purpose of producing

a visible or an audible effect by combustion, deflagration, or detonation, and which meets

the definition of "common" or "special" fireworks as set forth in the United States

Department of Transportation's (DOT) hazardous materials regulations.

(1) Exception number 1: Toy pistols, toy canes, toy guns or other devices in which

paper or plastic caps manufactured in accordance with DOT regulations, and packed

and shipped according to said regulations, are not considered to be fireworks and

shall be allowed to be used and sold at all times.

(2) Exception number 2: Model rockets and model rocket motors designed, sold, and

used for the purpose of propelling recoverable aero models are not considered to be

fireworks.

(3) Exception number 3: Propelling or expelling charges consisting of a mixture of

sulfur, charcoal, and saltpeter are not considered as being designed for producing

audible effects.

805 KAR 4:093. Permit to purchase or possess explosives.

RELATES TO: KRS 351.367, 351.370

STATUTORY AUTHORITY: KRS 351.335(1)

NECESSITY, FUNCTION, AND CONFORMITY: KRS 351.335(1) authorizes the Department of Mines and Minerals to promulgate rules and administrative regulations concerning the manufacture, transportation, sale, storage, or use of explosives and unassembled components of explosives, and the maintenance of such explosives which have a direct bearing on safety to life and property. This administrative regulation establishes guidelines for the necessity of and procedure for obtaining a permit for the purchase of possession of explosives.

Section 1. (1) Each person, firm, association, or corporation intending to purchase or take possession of explosives shall complete the application form (EC-52), and pay the application fee established by KRS 351.367(2).

(2) Each holder of a permit to purchase or possess explosives shall provide a copy of his permit to the explosive dealer or distributor prior to the transfer of the explosive materials.

(3) A permit to purchase or possess explosives shall be obtained prior to purchasing or taking possession of any explosive materials, including all high explosives, blasting agents, and detonators, and two (2) component, binary explosive compounds.

(4) The following materials are exempt from the requirement to obtain a permit:

(a) Oil well perforating charges of less than ninety (90) grams each;

(b) All grades of blackpowder suitable for firearms;

(c) All fireworks; and

(d) Any propellant powder for firearms or rockets.

(5) Any person who signs the application for a permit, either as an individual or as a representative of a corporation, firm, or association, shall be accountable for the explosives purchased under the terms of the permit.

(6) A permit holder may purchase explosives for use on several different business locations or construction sites, if the person designated on the permit application is the central agent ordering the explosives, and is responsible for the security and disposition of the explosives at all sites.

(7) If a single corporation or company has multiple business sites, each of which purchases explosives independently, each site shall obtain its own permit.

Section 2. Incorporation by Reference. (1) Form "(EC-52)", (revised August

1996), is incorporated by reference.

shockie B(

Which if you disregard some of the personal hardships they imposed on others to serve their ego's, was a generally good thing for the NAR. The NAR has been better off generally for it. Thank you Pat Miller and Mark Bundick.

However some of the policies have had HUGE negative effects. If we could just reverse the top 4 worst ones there would be a HUGE grwoth spurt. I know from what I speak as both a long term NAR member and long term "manufacturer".

Yep.

Ray: the funny thing is that he told me that as long as he was SFM none of the NFPA 11xx codes would be adopted here.....not sure what the backstory on that is..... so at worse he would get them unadopted.... shockie B)

correspondance

There's 2 in Dillion. ; )

Randy

What Mark says is quite true. I've submitted many comments and proposals to the NFPA committee via Pat. And got the books back with all the revisions proposals and committee votes.

The problem is what happens once they get there. Some of them have been "Passed in Principle", then ignored. As best as I've been able to determine, this phrase is their diplomatic way of saying "F**K off kid, you bother me". One of my last submissions pointed out how the code was not compatible with laws like ADA, and recommended explicit changes that were never implemented. Then there are very clear proposals that they adopt, and do exactly the opposite, making things worse instead of better. After several go-rounds with this, I gave up.

IMHO, the NFPA process is extremely broken.

Mr. Bundick, if you wish to take this as an action item for the upcoming BOT meeting, or the "needs fixin" report, pleae do so.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

I can't say that it's exactly 75, but that is pretty close, at least for the past several years.

1. There are 3 candidates for 3 offices. The results are pre-ordained. Like the republican primary today in NH.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

There is a call for candidates every year in the Model Rocketeer.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Certainly #1 on my list is holding back for almost a decade on expanding sport rocketry from 453g/F motors to HPR.

The NFPA process needs work, but IMHO the problem is at the NFPA end and not in our representative to the committee.

We need to be more pro-active than reactive in legislative changes. Right now we've got the BATFE on our case. Shipping regs are a PITA again.

And I won't even get into the years of turmoil around the contest board, pink book rules, et. al. Been there, done that, got the scars to prove it.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Yes, but the only way to fix that is for more people to volunteer to run for office. That's a member problem, not a NAR problem.

Because being an NAR Board member can be a PITA, Bob.

Twice a year, you get to spend two days locked up in a conference room working through the projects and issues. When you get home, generally NAR Board members have jobs to do assisting committees or working on special projects. Most of the jobs don't have anything to do with actually building and flying rockets. Trustees are responsible for their expenses to attend the meetings (I tell people to budget $600 per meeting. My expenses have run higher than the typical Board member due to phone, travel to events outside the Board meetings, postage and office stuff, roughly $3,000 annually over the past 5 years or so.) Depending on the committee or project, the NAR can take over your life. For me, it means between 10 and 15 hours a week of work.

In my experience, rocketeers generally don't find this kind of management or administrative work rewarding. They'd rather build and fly.

You've got the facts all wrong, not surprising since you weren't there and I was.

The February 1978 Board meeting did find us in a bit of a quandry. Manning Butterworth, the President, had been offered and accepted a position at the University of Wales. This was an opportunity he wanted to take for professional reasons, but hadn't heard a decision on it until shortly before the meeting. He can hardly be faulted for the timing of the University of Wales, IMHO. Gerry Gregorek, the VP, had not planned on attending due to other committements at Ohio State; he was chairman of the Aero Dept., and didn't have flexibility in his schedule. Thus, we were it a bit of a pickle trying to sort out the leadership to start with. But we got it sorted out and did some good business. Finally, Gerry remained VP for another 9 months or so, BTW. I didn't become VP until Pat had been in office nearly a year.

Anyone interested in finding out more details is welcome to contact me directly. I'd be happy to send you some information via email, then schedule a conversation via phone to answer questions.

As an aside, I've already recruited one new candidate for the upcoming election, and have contacted another who is considering whether or not to run.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org

"A closed mouth gathers no foot."

Certainly true. It's an opinion based on:

• my 28 years of experience in nonprofit management

• my review and study of other non profits and their organization via the ASAE, and

• the total lack of a citation of an example where a change in an NPO's organizational structure resulted in a large membership and volunteer increase.

Let's examine the top downloads from the NAR website, a place where the public goes to find out about our organization and its activities

science_fair_rocketry.pdf spr-sample.1.pdf Estes/D12.pdf Estes/E9.pdf youthprogs.pdf Aerotech/G80.pdf CombinedList.pdf hpappl.pdf Aerotech/G64.pdf membership.pdf

That's five items on engines, the membership application, the HPR user certification application, a sample of Sport Rocketry and, #1 on the list, the science fair write up done by Trip Barber. The By-Laws aren't anywhere to be found on this list.

This isn't my opinion. These are the fact; people join the NAR becasue they're interested in rockets and flying them, not becasue of our organizational structure.

We will not increase the size of the membership, the quality or density of the service programs we offer, or futher protect the long term future of hobby rocketry by changing the NAR By Laws, instituting recall procedures or slapping term limits on officers or Board members.

I have been offered no compelling reasons why the NAR organizational structure should be changed, how it would substantially increase our administrative effectiveness or improve member services.

If members want to advance the hobby and support the NAR, they should build and fly rockets, tell other people about the safety, education and fun of that, and drop the lofty rhetoric.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org

"A closed mouth gathers no foot."

Incomplete, inaccurate information vs. waiting until you have the facts straight is certainly an interesting contrast in approaches.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org

"A closed mouth gathers no foot."

I respectfully disagree. The NFPA agenda and revision cycle is open to the public and published in advance.

Again, I respectfully disagree with respect to the NFPA Committee members.

Local AHJ's have a long history in this country of being overly cautions folks. In my experience, they tend to be given broad authority by the local government to speak on matter they believe affect public safety. At least initially in any discussion where there are disagreements over an activity (rocketry, fireworks, etc), those local government officials, particularly if elected, also tend to defer to the AHJ over any sort of evidence offered by citizens.

To the extent that any local AHJ asks or demand additional steps over and above what is in the code itself, you're stuck negotiating that or battling it out with his superiors.

To the extent that you believe 1122 is flawed, then you have to change the code.

You can work through the NFPA process on your own to attempt to do that. Pat Miller will help you and explain the procedures so you can avoid getting thrown out on a technicality. His contact information is available at the NAR website.

If you want the NAR to champion the cause, then you're going to have to petition the Board, and offer the technical data to back up the assertion to the change. I'd be happy to discuss that privately with you via email and suggest how you can best present your case.

If you think I'm being a barrier to your communication to the Board, or wish simply to communicate directly, you can write the Board members without going through me. Address information is available at the Contacts Directory at the NAR Website.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org

"A closed mouth gathers no foot."

My point is that the relative percentage participation in NAR elections parallels that in public office elections. Expecting something vastly different to occur in the NAR election is unrealistic.

I find the tone and tenor of this portion of the post unhelpful.

good thing ......

Suggesting change for change sake, as appears is the case here, when a majority of US non profits successfully employ the same organizational structure at the NAR, strikes me as a waste of time. The costs in terms of effort vs. the undemonstrated benefits look to make this a losing trade to me.

I'm open to concrete case citations where a change in organizational structure resulted in increased membership or volunteer rates. Can you cite them?

As to where we should focus, IMHO, our energy would be better spent working to:

• extend the positive influence of TARC, both as to school participation and excellent public relations

• inding a good avenue to reach more kids who buy their rockets at Wal-Mart, letting them know the fun can be extended into a lifelong hobby, and

• continuing to show the media that our hobby is safe, educational and fun.

When I compare the relative value of those three things against effort on NAR internal organization, the scale clearly tips in a particular direction.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org

"A closed mouth gathers no foot."

These statements are a complete falsehood and refuse to acknowledge that the ARSA:

• had no comprehensive game plan to pass the legislation,

• had no troops on the ground to lead the manage the process, and

• had failed to proactively engage the NAR and TRA prior to launching a solo effort that was under resourced from the start, and subject to tremendous political risks.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org

"A closed mouth gathers no foot."

1. There were 3 open positions and 3 candidates running.

Tom

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:13:14 -0500, "shockwaveriderz" wrote:

As I've clearly stated to you in private email and in this forum, creating of this list you want is not Pat's job. He represents the NAR in the context of being a member of a Technical Committee of the NFPA. I think those duties are pretty well laid out at:

Text is attached below for anyone interested.

In the meantime, the door's still open for any dedicated NAR member who wants to talk to me about undertaking the task of compiling that state by state information as outlined previously.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

3-1 Guidelines Applicable to All Participants.

(a) Participants should read, become familiar with, and adhere to the Regulations Governing Committee Projects and all other duly established policies and procedures related to the NFPA Codes and Standards Development Process. (b) Participants should act honestly and in good faith with a view to the best interest of NFPA and the NFPA Codes and Standards Development Process. Although it is recognized that legitimate differences of opinion can exist on individual issues, participants should support and promote the defined broad objectives of the NFPA. (c) Participants should stay current with all NFPA standards development activities in which they are directly or indirectly involved. Participants should encourage full participation in the Codes and Standards Development Process by all interested persons, and they should encourage and facilitate the full and open dissemination of all information necessary to enable full and fair consideration of all points of view. (d) No participant should ever attempt to withhold or prohibit information or points of view from being disseminated, particularly on the grounds that the participant is in disagreement with the information or points of view. Disagreements should be addressed and resolved through full presentation and discussion of all information and points of view, not through withholding information or preventing points of view from being expressed. (e) In order that the points of view and information participants contribute to the NFPA Codes and Standards Development Process can be accurately evaluated by others, participants should always endeavor to make known their business, commercial, organizational, or other affiliations that might affect their interests or points of view. (f) In all discussion, debate, and deliberation within the Codes and Standards Development Process, participants should confine their comments to the merits of the scientific, technical, and procedural issues under review. Although participants may forcefully advocate their views or positions, they should be candid and forthcoming about any weaknesses in their position, and they should refrain from debate and discussion which is disrespectful or unprofessional in tone or which is unduly personalized or damaging to the overall process of achieving consensus. (g) Participants should take appropriate steps to ensure that any public statements, either written or oral, which are not official statements of the NFPA, are properly portrayed as the opinion or position of that individual. Care should be taken to ensure that the public is not misled by such statements. (h) In circumstances where duly established policies and procedures related to the NFPA Codes and Standards Development Process permit deliberations to take place in executive session, participants should respect and observe the confidentiality of those executive sessions.

3-2 Additional Guidelines Applicable to Participation in Technical Sessions of NFPA Membership Meetings.

(a) It is appropriate for participants in the Codes and Standards Development Process to urge that all persons with a genuine and demonstrated interest in the purposes of NFPA join the organization and participate as duly enrolled voting members in the Technical Sessions at NFPA membership meetings. Participants, however, should not urge, arrange, or otherwise facilitate the participation of persons with no such interest for the purpose of affecting the outcome of a vote on an issue at a Technical Session. (b) Participants should conduct themselves at all times in a professional and respectful manner, and shall respect all rulings of the chair. They should express their views through the making of appropriate motions and through participation in the formal debate on motions.

3-3 Additional Guidelines Applicable to Members of Technical Committees and Technical Correlating Committees (TC/TCC Members).

(a) In order for the Codes and Standards Development process to operate fairly and effectively, it is necessary that Technical Committees and Technical Correlating Committees contain the representation of a variety of interests and that those interests are balanced within the Committees. In order to ensure the necessary balance of interest, TC/TCC members have an affirmative and continuing obligation to provide NFPA with timely, accurate, and complete information concerning their qualifications and interest classification. (b) TC/TCC Members should maintain a high level of knowledge and competency in the areas of interest and/or expertise that are related to their activities within the NFPA Codes and Standards Development Process. (c) TC/TCC Members should actively and diligently perform all duties required of them by their committee work. This includes fully preparing for and consistently attending all appropriate committee and task group meetings; reading and becoming familiar with all issues relating to Proposals and Comments on which their Committee is to act; promptly completing and returning all letter ballots; and promptly and thoroughly taking all actions necessary to complete the processing of documents within their Committees. (d) The NFPA Codes and Standards Development Process recognizes that those who are willing and competent to participate in standards development activities often have outside business, commercial, or other interests. It is for this reason that Technical Committees and Technical Correlating Committees are required to be balanced by including in their membership persons of varying commercial and other interests. Although members are categorized according to their interest classification for the purpose of achieving balance, TC/TCC Members are not appointed to committees for the purpose of furthering their business, commercial, or other outside interests. TC/TCC Members are expected to and should base all advocacy, voting, and other standards development activities on sound technical and scientific bases and should act in the interest of fire safety and NFPA?s other purposes and goals. (e) TC/TCC Members who have been classified by the Standards Council as Special Experts comprise a category of independent consultants and experts who are generally unallied with any particular business or commercial interest. On occasion, however, independent consultants in this category may be retained by a client to advocate on behalf of the client with regard to a specific issue or issues before the TC/TCC. As to these specific issues, the TC/TCC Member should not be regarded as a Special Expert because to do so could result in a balance of interests that was not intended by the Standards Council. Therefore, TC/TCC Members categorized as Special Experts who have been retained to represent the interests of another with respect to a specific issue or issues that are to be addressed by a TC/TCC shall declare those interests to the Committee and refrain from voting on any proposal, comment, or other matter relating to those issues. In addition, although it is not expected that TC/TCC members in other interest categories will generally be retained by another to advocate on his or her behalf with respect to a specific issue or issues before the TC/TCC, such an arrangement would present the same concerns as would exist with a Special Expert. Accordingly, a TC/TCC member in any interest category who has been retained to represent the interests of another interest category with respect to a specific issue or issues that are to be addressed by a TC/TCC shall declare those interests to the Committee and refrain from voting on any proposal, comment, or other matter relating to those issues. (f) TC/TCC Members frequently receive funding from their employers, organizations, or other sources for their participation in the NFPA Standards Development Process, and they have an affirmative and continuing obligation to declare those sources of funding to the NFPA. Apart from those declared sources of funding, TC/TCC Members should not solicit or accept gifts, hospitality, or transfers of economic benefit, other than incidental gifts or other benefits of nominal value, from persons, groups, or organizations having dealings with their Committee or under any circumstances in which the benefit would be or would appear to be bestowed or accepted for the purposes of influencing the members' activities within the Standards Development Process. (g) TC/TCC Members should treat all persons having dealings with their Committee with respect and fairness and should not offer or appear to offer preferential treatment to any person or group. (h) TC/TCC Members should refrain from disseminating false or misleading information or from withholding information necessary to a full, fair, and complete consideration of the issues before their committee.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org

"A closed mouth gathers no foot."