A modest proposal... or Jerry Irvine saves the Universe



If you call it sitting there with no hearing on submitted briefs for MANY MONTHS "working its way". I do not. I call that a stall tactic.

They refuse to certify motors from firms who FOLLOW the precise advise in the NAR lawsuit.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

It's ALL about YOU, huh? Is that what you are saying?
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And that's NAR/TRA's doing, is it?
len.
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Leonard Fehskens wrote:

Yeah, their in cahoots with the Judge. Don't you know how conspiracies work?
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All they have to do is ask for a status hearing. 32 cent stamp and a 2 page document.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine ( snipped-for-privacy@gte.net) wrote:

My email records show that I contacted Mr. Wickman on December 11, and 12, 2002, January 6, 2003 and February 13, 2003 and was politely, but positively rebuffed in my efforts to open dialogue with him.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org
"When you keep calling the girl, and she won't answer the phone, it means she's not interested in dating you."
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I will ask John his take on it.
Look to my own post re my experience at NARCON-03 to see how you treated questions from a member in "good standing" (obviously a term used loosely).
Jerry

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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Why not just ask him to post his responce here. Where we can all see it. Mark can do it, what is JW afraid of?
Jerry Irvine wrote:

--
Alex Mericas


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And while you are responding to my posts:
1. Cease and desist asking for ATF permits in violation of law, of NFPA codes, of your lawsuit position and of course of your fiduciary duty.
a. Inform me when you have ceased.
2. Cease and desist claiming there is a 62.5g limit of any relevence to ATF.
a. Inform me when you have ceased.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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<<If you call it sitting there with no hearing on submitted briefs for MANY MONTHS "working its way". I do not. I call that a stall tactic. >>
Yeah, the judge is taking his sweet time, but unlike the senate bill the opposition can't kill it outright. And if it hadn't been for the senate bill we might not have had to wait so long for a ruling in court.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

They are theoretically totally disconnected.
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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Theoretically, theory and practice are the same. Practically, they're not.
len.
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we gonna diverge here folks.... I still say and think that as a 1st step in a continuing process over time.....0.9 lb was a great improvement over 62.5g..... With additional fine tuning I'm sure it would have become even better........and If 0.9 lbs became law, the bush administration finally rode into the sunset, the terrorism hysteria abated somewhat, we could come back to this at a later date and get a even more and better deal .....This was NOT a one shot deal folks.....this was just an opening gambit......
and don't forget that ARSA in its rush to be the savior of all rocketry forced the NAR/TRA's hand on this..... and the ARSA is now responsible for the NAR/TRA having to raise its rates by $15 to pay for Mr. Kytes 60K bill..... IF I was the NAR/TRA I'd sue both JW and his ARSA to recovery that money...... IF I was paranoid( and I'm not although I'm sure some of you think I am ) I'd almost think that JW/ARSA did this on purpose with the intent of trying to destroy both the NAR/TRA
I mean come on folks....lets take a close look ar ARSA.....No articles of incorporation, no bylaws, no officers,no Board of directors,no dues,not a member of NFPA,no membership card(how can you be real without a ID card?),no nothing....Its a figment of JW's mind and a pretty good one at that.....
Heck today I started a new organization called the IRA....No, not the Irish Republican Army, The Independent Rocketry Association.....come and join...its free and we do nothing .......
The original ARSA submission was DOA and fatally flawed from the very beginning....
From my perspective as a NAR member, the ARSA had no business whatsoever sticking its nose into model rocketry and HPR.......ARSA doesn';t even have anything to do with model rocketry or HPR....its Amateur Rocketry.....I'm going to say this one more time: ALL together Now: Model Rocketry and High Power Rocketry are NOT Amateur Rocketry and vice-versa..OK ? Understand? Don't make me come over there and smack you upside your head.......
shockie B) NAR 16158
for those humour impaired: alot of the above post is said with tongue firmly in cheek.....

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shockwaveriderz wrote:

too late, shockie
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/7247/chapters.html http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/7247/newchapter.html
but most of the links are broken, so if they're not actually operating you may be able to buy the name from them ;)

http://sg1.allmusic.com/cg/smp.dll?r .asx&link=ubw9k7rmyweqb9a5ebxskz4 [ http://tinyurl.com/2fr5j ]
    Oops Upside Your Head     The Gap Band     1987, Phonogram
"say oops upside your head say oops upside your head say oops upside your head say oops upside your head"
- iz ;)
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We don't currently have a 62.5g limit in the LAW. WHy should we accept a .9# limit when we currently have NO limit?

And you think a Hillary administration would be more willing to return our rights?

NAR dues increased because of increased INSURANCE costs.

Don't we already have 3 such organizations. One using the same 3 letters as you suggest?
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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correspondance with

directly references

Minnesota has adopted the IFC 2000 code, but not (yet) the IFC 2003 code. My understanding (and I could well be wrong) is that IFC 2000 was basically the UBC code with the IFC label, and that the new IFC code will be the first to truly integrate the three old standard codes and (some of) the NFPA codes. When I was dancing with the local AHJs trying to get a common understanding of what was required to have motor storage, I was up to date. I guess I have to go to the library for a few hours....

1122/1125/1127...
I'm not in a position to talk about the contents of any specific conversations, but the SFM told me the same thing three years ago, via the topics not covered clause in the old UBC code. My point is only that knowing that a code is "adopted" is not necessarily enough.
I'm just saying that you can be fooled if all you do is assume that the IFC governs all regulations--it's still dependent on how the IFC is practiced locally. As an analogy, we have a very well defined Federal code in the form of the orange book, and people are still being told to do things that aren't in it--if the NAR says the orange book says its OK, and your BATF inspector says it isn't, who would you be mad at? Would everyone agree?

can't launch

codes do

activities.They only

That is exactly my point. Under 1122, you may not launch rockets with homemade motors, only certified ones. That doesn't make EX illegal, but it does say that you can't cite 1122 as your governing code. So what regulations DO apply to EX? It's more up to the AHJ's interpretation. If ATF defines AP as an explosive, s/he may want to apply NFPA codes applicable to explosives. Or perhaps the correct section of law to apply is the one that governs fireworks manufacturing. Or both. And if you damage something by accident, are they going to call it an accident? Or gross negligence? Or criminal mischief? See??
There are some who argue that if it isn't explicitly prohibited, then it is allowed. I'm not unsympathetic to that approach, but I don't think it will work for everyone in the real world, and I'd be uncomfortable if my hobby organizations tried to interpret the local laws for me, let alone all of its members!

date.....there is an

distributed as a

determining this

Two points.
First, if it were that easy, you'd have done it by now ;-). It isn't, of course. You'll get no response from some, and you'd have to follow up. Other Fire Marshals are set up as investigators, and there is a different organization that works on codes. If you're lucky, they'd tell you. Or you might get a nice letter that says the current code is yadda yadda and it's been ammended by foo bar blech and the new code is anticipated to be adopted by the legislature in two months except that it's been tied to a gun bill or a tax cut bill or a sports stadium bill or.... you get the idea. Minnesota, for example, has a lot of the ammendments to the codes on line, but heaven help you if you only find 4 of the 5 places that regulate you.
Second, you have to consider that if you ask a SFM for a written assessment in a letter, you are likely to get a conservative answer. If instead you work with the SFM office to educate them about why what you are doing is different from making McGuyver bombs, you might get a more liberal answer. So what's really needed, IMO, is not a mailing list for the state of local regulation, but a clearing house in which interested people _from each state_ develop relations with the appropriate regulators and share information with local hobbyists. But again, that's a lot of work. I wrote up my experiences several years ago for ROL Infocentral, but it would be a load of work to maintain such a thing. I can think of about 10 alternative activities I'd rather have a pool of volunteers committed enough to do the legal lists do instead, assuming I could gather such a pool of people!
FWIW,
--tc
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Which is why I also made the call and published many of the results. Some of which "shockie" refers to.
I must have had a bigger mouth, or more credibility.
http://www.v-serv.com/pool/AHJ.htm
Someone puts his effort where his words are.
But I ask you, if this was a task you actually undertook, why didn't you follow up on it?

Name the last three votes that didn't go primarilly your way.

http://www.v-serv.com/pool/AHJ.htm
Watch.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:11:15 -0500, "shockwaveriderz"

If someone's going to undertake the task of compiling useful information, here's a sample of what I would think would work for NAR members with questions about state laws impacting rockets:
    NOTE: WHAT FOLLOWS IS FOR ILLUSTRATIVE PURPOSES     ONLY AND IS NOT BASED ON ANY FACTUAL INFORMATION     REGARDING PARTICULAR STATE LAWS.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
ILLINOIS
NFPA Code Adoption: 1122, 1125, 1127 Adoption Method: by reference within statute Statue Reference: IL Sec 123 Online Reference: http://www.state.il.us/code/ilsec123.html Effective Date: 12 Jan 1999 State Authority Having Jurisdiction: State Fire Marshall 123 Lincoln Street Springfield, IL 60001 888-555-1515
WISCONSIN
NFPA Code Adoption: 1122 Adoption method: by text incorporation into statute Statue Reference: WI Public Act 3459 Online Reference: none available Effective Date: 12 Jun 2000 State Authority Having Jurisdiction: Office of Public Safety 456 Badger Way Madison, WI 54000 800-555-9876
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Compiling this depth of information will take some serious sleuthing, folks. Maintaining it will be even harder. This is why I originally posted that the time, effort and expense involved in this kind of member support is significant. Any executive director of a trade association with intensive government regulation would have told you this up front.
As Ted Cochran has pointed out, the best place for NAR members to start is by following the Safety Codes. Doing that and point to the NFPA codes, regardless of the level of their adoption within your state, will put you on as solid a piece of ground as you can be should you be confronted by local AHJ's.
In the meantime, the door's still open for any dedicated NAR member who wants to talk to me about undertaking the task of compiling information as outlined above.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org
"A closed mouth gathers no foot."
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Only one "l" in Marshal
;-)
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
-- """Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply.
wrote:

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There's 2 in Dillion. ; )
Randy
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