A modest proposal... or Jerry Irvine saves the Universe

Agreed. If Izzy wants to fly 1-grain Pro-38's for life because of some silly moral objection to HPR user certification, then hey, so be it. It's his loss if he does not want to explore this most excellent hobby to it's fullest potential.

When I got in to this hobby, I was surprised that one was allowed to keep their current certification level so long as they kept their membership active, no re-cert. I don't have a problem with this process. I think it is an excellent tool for the NAR and TRA to keep the membership numbers up.

-- Joe Michel NAR 82797 L1

lets be clear: the NFPA codes have nothing whatsoever to do with Amateur Rocketry..... and ARSA has nothing to do with model rocketry nor high power rocketry.... you are trying to mix and match apples and ornages here folks.....

If ARSA wanted to be an AHJ and cert motors, they could always join the NFPA and apply for membership and representation on the NFPA Pyro-AAA Technical Committee.... but if ARSA decided to start certing motors, then it wouldn't be "amateur" rocketry anymore, now would it? It would be MR or HPR......AR/EX doesn't require any certs for any motors.... shockie B)

what he said

what I said

I think we are "clear" ;)

- iz

on the other hand......... I can forsee the ARSA joining as a member of the NFPA for one purpose only...... To help create regulation for how amateur rocketry is to be allowed per other NFPA codes... for example it might be called NFPA 1129 Code for Amateur Rocketry. Would the ARSA and all other AR/EX rocketeers want the NAR/TRA to be the only input the NFPA received for such a code? On one hand codifying amateur rocketry and being accepeted as a NFPA code in a large number of states would go along way towards "legitimizing " amateur rocketry ..

But ARSA needs to recognize that regulation is NOT necessarily a bad thing...... and elect officers,create a By-Laws,have dues paying members,etc etc.....

If ARSA took those steps above they would attract potentially thousands of members, and could then provide insurance to their membership? lobby congress for AR/EX laws?

I d>

rocketry....

U forget that some of those states that have not adopted the IFC may have adopted the NFPA 1 chapter 65...KY is one of those states and also CA is due in 2006-2008 to adopt NFPA 1.......whether they will adopt chapter 65 in whole remains to be seen.... I have contacted the NFPA and asked if they might be able to provide me with a comprehensive listing of which states have adopted NFPA 1 Chapter 65 or the NFPA 11xx codes, so far no response..... I also contacted the NAR regarding this and was told the NAR has no interest in knowing which states have or have not adopted either IFC/NFPA 1 chapter 65 or the other NFPA 11xx codes... talk about does this make any sense?

Here we have one of the movers and shakers behind the construction of and the adoption of the NFPA code framework and they don't even care or see the need to care about which states adopt the NFPA codes are not.....

shockie B)

Welcome to my world.

nope, didn't forget it d0od, see ....

are you an NFPA member? If not, and that is the reason for their not responding, I can make the request as a NFPA member (I maintain mambership so I can ask Technical Document Questions, etc.)

they should care just because a rocketeer cares, they should find out for you and publish their findings for all members. But it looks like they are just blowing you off, IMO. (I'm assuming you are a NAR member)

not a very responsive organization ... :(

- iz

iz: opps my bad..... now I know I need glasses......B) anyway... No I am not currently a NFPA member....although one day I hope to be....

I emailed the NFPA PYRO-AAA Technical Committee Liaison Guy R. Colonna at snipped-for-privacy@nfpa.org a few days ago but have yet to receive an answer.

shockie B)

I would disagree with this characterization of our electronic conversation.

Specifically, you wrote me in regards to the next NAR Board meeting as follows:

to which I replied:

incorporated NFPA codes

you're doing.

/editorial comments on

I'm nearly constantly bemused by gross mischaracterizations of the "NAR" that are done on electronic forums. I find it fascinating that rocket hobbyists can demonstrate the utmost skill and care in designing, building and flying very complex models fail to apply those same skills when it comes to basic membership service organization and execution.

This kind of regulatory tracking is complex and time consuming. Most professional trade organizations affected by local, state and Federal regulations devote staff time to track and report on these issues. Those organizations also charge hefty dues to pay for this staff. The NAR's staff resources to do this are obviously limited.

I'm open to suggestions about how a volunteer might organize, track and maintain the requested database and who might, on an ongoing basis, keep track of the changes in various state codes.

Secondly, NAR member services are, outside of basic HQ membership processing, done by volunteers. They take on, out of the goodness of their hearts and a sense of obligation to the hobby and the NAR, a task that supports other NAR members. I applaud their efforts in the vast range of membership service a majority of NAR members enjoy, HPR certification and launches, local clubs, NARTS, NARTREK, competition, and community outreach.

To suggest that I "direct" a volunteer to do something implies a level of command and control management infrastructure exists only for HQ and our paid providers. If NAR members think there's a lot of project work done simply by Bunny commanding "make it so",they have a poor grasp of both how the NAR is run, and what techniques work to build an effective volunteer organization.

/editorial comments off = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org

"A closed mouth gathers no foot."

mark: you can disagree all you want with my "characterization" of our electronic conversation.... sheesh...I diagree with your use of "electronix conversation" why not just say email conversattion ?

did you not say this: "I personally don't think it's our job to keep track of what states have incorporated NFPA codes into their state laws" whos job is it? But it is your job to propose the regulations that become laws in states via the NFPA codes, that we all have to follow whether we are NAR/TRA members or not? You are being disingenuous at best here Mark, and showing how clueless you are at worse.....

the point is as you well know, is the NAR/TRA plays a large if not dominant role in the design and construction of the NFPA codes, and the NAR/TRA doesn't even know who has adopted them... If you "personally" don't think its the job of the NAR or the NAR NFPA Committee Liaison to keep track of this information, then why are you and J.Patrick Miller even our reps for the NFPA? May I suggest that you step down as the #2 NFPA alternate on the Technical Committee and I will cough up $135 to join the NFPA and replace you.By the way, does the NAR pay yours and J.Patrick's NFPA dues ? If so, then the NAR can pay for my NFPA dues and I will volunteer to be a member of the NFPA Liaison committee under J.Patrick Miller and I will compile the listing.... I will then see to it that there is always an up-to-date listing for our membership to know . But we know that will never happen as it will dilute your control and power ......

It seems logical to me to think that an organization like the NAR, would want to know this information for their membership.

And I am sick and tired of you and other NAR administrative people always playing the "race card", ie "the lack of volunteers" whenever a member asks for the NAR to do something. I submit that the "lack of volunteer" argument is a canard..... thrown out to shut people up who disagree with you ......You sure don't seem to have any shortage of volunteers for activities and things you personally deem important. And as NFPA rep, what exactly is J.Patrick Miller supposed to be doing anyway? Does he just occupy "time and space" and do nothing? And May I also suggest if you just plain don't have enough time to provide volunteer service to the NAR, then resign and allow somebody that does have the free time to volunteer their time.

Back on December 7th 2003 I emailed J.Cook asking for information on the NAR requirements for certifying motors. He replied that it would be to me within a week or so....I'm still waiting 6 weeks later....

Remember the publication of the NAR BOT meeting minutes 60 days after the close the meeting that is in the bylaws? At first you and your cohorts denied that it was even required. SO what do you do? Post a "outline"..... When I held your feet to the fire as to what the By-Laws said, you finally posted a more or less complete BOT meeting minutes. So evidently you have been ignoring and violating the BY-Laws at will for some time with nobody saying anything about . And when somebody does say something about it, or point it out to you, your synchophant cronies crawl out of the woodwork and attack the person, publicy and privately....... but of course you still want these people, to volunteer.....

fellow readers of RMR, I will bet anything that a certain trustee of the NAR will attack me within 24 hrs of publication of this post....remember you heard it here first

Terry Dean NAR 16158 aka shockie B)

incorporated NFPA codes

research you're doing.

Ouch!

Careful or you may find yourself in Jerry's category. :)

Rocky Firth

This should be in the FAQ.

'categories' are personal

as we have seen over the past 6-8 weeks, Jerry's credibility has been elevated and the national org's has been diminished to a number of objective participants

now if you mean that shockie (who, BTW was responsible enough to identify himself as a NAR member) shares the qualities of being a critical observer and has the willingness to challenge 'leaderz' with Jerry than I agree with that assessment, and would be pleased to share their company as well.

while the national orgs use the NFPA ostensibly to maintain credibility with regulators and insurance underwriters, they in fact automonously decide how our activities are to be constrained. Under the guise of "our elected officials" to whom such responsibility has been delegated, they come down from Mt. Sinai with the holy tablets of rocketry full of 'thou shalt' and 'shalt nots' and I have little confidence that they fathom or are particularly concerned with the impacts of the 'agreements' they make on our behalf.

we could use more member participation in the process, and the orgs could use more scrutiny and a higher level of accountabilty

to blatantly state that it is not their responsibility is absurd, and I wholly agree with shockie in this. If it is not theirs, as NFPA 'insiders', then whose? Some other organization who does not even have representation on the NFPA Pyrotechnics committee?

I am NOT at all satisfied with the organizations performance in the development of NFPA codes, and was appalled at their obstruction of the legislative effort. They presume to be rocketry advocacies, but conduct themselves like rocketry regulatory advocacies and kindly offer to be the surrogates of those who would just as soon see rocketry extinguished.

thanks, but no thanks

you keep right on asking questions and demanding answers, shockie! And when you don't like the answers you just keep right on being outraged, because all is NOT well in rocketry land, and if more of us don't wake the hell up, there isn't going to BE any rocketry land.

I am dead serious!

- iz

I have been in Jerry's camp for a while.

I am also in agreement with Shockie. It has been a while since a "new voice" has joined the chorus. I hope he has better luck than previous efforts but I am not holding my breath.

Only a major change in leadership, as in sweeping change, can change the direction of the NAR. I'm not sure anything can help the TRA.

But this is just my opinion.

Rocky Firth NAR 55487

If you think it's important for you to know the laws of your state, then obviously it's your job to know the laws of your state. It's not someone else's job to find out for you.

I don't see a large number of members clamoring for this information, nor do I see any reason why they should be clamoring for it.

Well I'm not in either category, and I'm not attacking you. I just think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Exqueeze me?? Jerry's been proven a liar. That doesn't exactly elevate his credibility, unless you thought he had even less credibility than that to begin with.

Oops, your double standard is showing again.

If you think it matters, then it's your responsibility.

Boohoo.

So says the armchair rocketeer/clueless newby who thinks he knows so much more than the folks who've been "in the trenches".

If it's not their job to know state law, then it is not their job to know federal law either.

Stop even asking for DOT or ATF papers. ATF is not even required under NFPA-1122,1125,1127!

You mean the sky really "is" falling? (to a degree)

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:11:15 -0500, "shockwaveriderz"

"This kind of regulatory tracking is complex and time consuming. Most professional trade organizations affected by local, state and Federal regulations devote staff time to track and report on these issues. Those organizations also charge hefty dues to pay for this staff. The NAR's staff resources to do this are obviously limited."

I think RMR readers underestimate the time and effort required to produce such a comprehensive list. I also think RMR readers underestimate the time it will take to keep such a list current. Some points of reference in this regard:

In April 2002, I asked several NAR members to begin the task of preparing a legal reference state by state. I published a call for members to provide state statute reference to this team. To date, we don't yet have results from that call to action.

Back in April 2003, one RMR poster proposed creating a "rocketlaws.org" website, going so far as to solicit input from rocketeers as to code references within there state. To date, as best I can tell, this website has not been developed.

Unless a considerable number of volunteers undertake the effort to track down their local laws, and provide that information to an NAR volunteer to coordinate that effort, the list will not, in my opinion, get built.

Suggestions in this and other forums that the NAR and / or TRA somehow write the codes, present them as a fait a compli, and ram rod them through are completely inaccurate representation of the process.

As part of the process by which NFPA adopts those codes, they become subject to multiple, independent reviews by the public, by the NPFA Standards Council, and by NFPA committee members not directly associated with the sport rocketry community. Even if we wanted to play a "dominant" role, we can't simply force our view of things on the Committee. That simply is not the way the NFPA process works.

Is there some reason that you didn't offer this up to me when you originally emailed? You originally said

"I would like you to direct J.Patrick Miller, Chairman of the NFPA Committee to compile with 60 days, a listing showing which states have adopted in full any of the following NFPA codes: NFPA 1 Chapter 65, NFPA 1122/1125/1127."

A far more interesting and helpful reply to my message might have been:

"If you don't have anyone capable of doing this or Pat is otherwise occupied, I will volunteer to prepare it for publication at the NAR website."

If you think you can now compile the list for NAR members, then by all means, proceed. When you have information on 5 states, I'll work with you to get the information distributed.

Please feel free to email me directly when you're ready.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org

"A closed mouth gathers no foot."