What's the current state of the hobby?

I am not particularly concerned about people buying and selling uncertified rocket motors. It happens all of the time. What troubles me is this might result in a problem at a NAR launch. What if there is an incident with an Apogee E6 that results in a claim against the NAR insurance? Worse, how do you verify after the fact that the motor was produced before the time limit? The only thing even vaguely resembling a date code on my old E6 is on the ejection charge cap. If it were up to me, and it isn't, I would be tempted to ban _all_ Apogee composite motors at NAR sanctioned launches because of the difficulty of verifying the date of manufacture and therefore the certification status.

In any case I explained very carefully at that time that:

1) The NAR BOT had explicitly voted to allow the use of those motors. Such is not the case for the Apogee motors. 2) I considered the FAI practice launch to be an AMA function separate from NSL operating under AMA rules, AMA insurance, and subject to AMA enforcement. Now that NAR has taken over some, although it isn't clear to me exactly what, of the management of FAI competition, this gets murkier.

The pictures of the motors on the Apogee web page appear to show NAR symbols indicating that they are NAR certified. Misrepresenting motors as certified is a violation of the NFPA codes. Why don't you get wound up about that?

Welcome back Les! Things are about the same. I hope you get back to flying soon.

Randy

oh and wasn't your 3rd reason to allow the use of the czech deltas was because Texas was not a NFPA or IFC state, at least in the fire district in which NSl2006 was being held.

which leads me to ask: Would you as an RSO allow these czech delta motors to be used/sold/distributed in a NFPA or IFC state?

terry dean nar 16158

That was a response to your threat to report us to the authorities. I was simply pointing out that you had nothing to report. I should have kept my keyboard shut and let you make a fool of yourself.

I want everybody to notice that he didn't, can't or won't answer a direct question.

terry dean nar 16158

We're noticing, alright, but it's certainly not you want noticed.

Like who cares? Since when does an RSO affect what people can buy, sell or distribute? Of course, the motors mentioned are not on the certified list and would not be allowed to be used under NAR or TRA rules but that doesn't affect any other launching.

Phil

The RSO has complete control over what flys at any NAR launch.

If I'm the RSO at a NAR launch, then what I say is law for that launch. I don't care whos rocket it is or what special permissions from anyone they have, if I (as RSO) feel the rocket shouldn't be launched, it wont be. I may not be invited back as RSO, but as far as I know, no one can over-rule the RSO once the RSO has said no to a rocket.

Personally, if I were RSO at the launch that had the "special permission" rockets being flown, I would have to seriously think about allowing them to be used. There is nothing stopping the person from launching them on thier own time and site, but as a NAR launch, the rocket motor should be on the list of certified motors. Why do they have to have special permission to launch them at a NAR launch? Why not just launch them the day before or the day after on thier own time? They wouldn't have NAR insurance while flying on thier own using uncertified motors, but for the motor sizes that were talked about, that shouldn't be a major issue.

My opinions are just that, my opinions. To each thier own I guess.

-Aar> Like who cares? Since when does an RSO affect what people can buy,

I should have said USE.. the RSOo is the last line of defense when it comes to safety standards. Another way to look at this is the RSO is the last enforcement person on the field who can enforce the NAR or TRA Safety Codes. Phil, do we know of any other RSO's that openly and knowingly allow uncertfied motors to be used on NAR/TRA ranges?

well we do now.

terry dean nar 16158

Kick 'em out! Kick 'em out! To the gulag with the infidels!

Oh, sorry, the Stalin in me snuck out.

What Phil said; 'would not be allowed to be used under NAR or TRA rules but that doesn't affect any other launching.' ^^^^^ I've launched a few uncertified motors at non tra/nar launches. Even flew a few on my buddy's private lot. Granted, no RSO, but so what?

Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75

tweak its a simple yes or no question: Let me ask the question to everybody in the NAR/TRA who have been RSO in the past or may be one in the future.

Would you allow uncertfied motors to be used at your NAR or TRA launch? And I'm not talking about previously certfied motors that have now become uncertfied.

One of David's excuses for allowing these uncertfied motors to be used was this was not a NAR/TRA launch, it was a AMA launch. Well the next launch that uses these uncertfied motors will be at a NOVAAR NAR Sport Lauch on August 19th. The FAI competition is now under the auspices of the NAR, so the "its a AMA launch" ruse can't be used this time around. Also the "texas isn't a nfpa state" can't be used because Virginia is a IFC state which may(notice I said MAY) incoporate the NFPA codes .

So will it be ok for this RSO at a NAR sport launch to allow these uncertfied motors to be used, because the NAR prez provides them a waiver? SInce when can the NAR prez waive the IFC/NFPA fire codes in a state?

I was an RSO once recently at a NAR Sport Launch when a uncertfied person tried to use a G75 ( its considered a HPT because of its propellant weight ok?) so I disallowed the launch. And I felt really bad about it,since the modeler had driven 75 miles to fly (he did fly other non-HPR rockets). Does anybody know of the 60 sec rule in the HPR safety code? Well I enforce this.

Its the duty and responsibility of a resposnsible RSO to "just say no" to NAR Prez waivers.

And I wish David, you would have had the courage to do so.

now say something smart and stupid Tweak...

terry dean nar 16158

According to your idealogy, no one who is not intimately familiar with all laws, that may or may not apply, and/or have not memorized this weeks certified motor list should be an RSO. Fine. You and the 17 other anal retentive twits for whom this crap really matters can go to every launch and RSO.

Because no, I DON'T care if some teensy A motor is on a certified list or not.

Now get bent.

well you know what they said tweakerster: you know you have won the debate when they start calling you names....

And no its not my "idealogy".... I have always said from day one it is each individual rocketeers resposnsibility and duty to know as much of the rules,regulations,laws etc that they can so they don't knowingly place themselves in a position of violating such rules, regulations or laws. Its the basis of our regulatory framework Tweak : its called "self regulation". If you are ignoranat of the rules regs and laws, then how can you self -regulate yourself in this hobby.? obviously you can't.

As far as knowing which motors are or are not on the combined certfication list, as a RSO, it would be prudent for him/her to print out a lisiting prior to each launch so he/she can do their job properly. I don't think this i asking too much of RSO's.

Tweak, and where do you personally draw the line at allowing uncertfied moters ? A seems to be ok with you. what about D? G? J ? P? How about we just dump ALL certfication requirements and let anybody who wants to make and sell motors do so with no safety certfication at all.

Yes, I may be anal retentive on this issue; but if you start letting the "little" things go, then its just a matter of time before let increasingly large things go by.... don't you understand that? Don't you see the risks to our hobby ?

I guess not

terry dean nar 16158

I have never said nor advocated that anybody be kicked out for this. In fact I have gone on the record that it would be counter-productive for any sanctions to be applied to anybody involved with this.

terry dean nar16158

I don't know any personally.

Phil

That is true but it looks like the BOT made a decisions in the case being discussed. Agree or not, isn't the BOT there to make decisions?

BTW you're little RSO tirade indicates that maybe you did not read and comprehend what I wrote.

Phil

I won't even ask. ;-)

Phil