What's the current state of the hobby?

alan: responses/comments inline
terry dean nar16158

--
"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP"


"Alan Jones" < snipped-for-privacy@nospam.mchsi.com> wrote in message
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On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 14:24:04 -0400, "shockwaveriderz"

As they should be. Aside from poor technique that munges attribution. :(
What would your solution have been?
Well to define a solution we first have to acknowledge there is a problema nd then define that problem.
Heres what I see as the major problem and solution:
1. These Czech delta motors have not undergone the prerequiste USDOT explosives testing and classification.
Solution: Have the Czech delta motors undergo this USDOT explosives testing classification
This to me is the "make or break" requirement, because once you achive the above, the NAR can then properly certfiy the motors for use per NFPA 1125 8.1.7.
Its actually a pretty simple solution. I don't know why the NAR refuses to do this, other than the fact that it will cost somebody both time and money. The ONLY reason I can come up with to think why they won't do this, is there is NO guarantee that the Czech delta motors can indeed even pass the USDOT explosives testing and classification scheme. The propellant composition may be such that they will fail 1 or more of the USDOT exploives tests; obviously that would not be a good thing. You obviously have to pay 1 of the 4 USDOT testing labs upfront for these tests (say 3-4K ) so if the Czech Delta's failed, you'd be out $3-4K right off the bat.
Right off the bat, you have miss identified the problem. Deltas are not uncertified model rocket motors. They are, at best, fireworks. The chemical composition used cannot gain US DOT approval. You confirmed this when you said that I was 110% correct. No amount of money or testing will change that. Well, maybe if you threw enough money at the problem to buy enough of right people... It is not a motor certification problem; it a problem of allowing NAR members to fly such fireworks or AR motors, particularly at NAR launches.
Perhaps it is time for the NAR to consider embracing the widespread use of "uncertified motors", AR/EX/Research, etc. These days we have a pitiful selection of contest certified motors, and many rocketeers still cannot get storage permits required for the bigger stuff. I could see several classes of "uncertified motors" and related activities. I'd still like to stick with the present system of motor certification for commercial sales and distribution to mass market consumers. I also think it is bad idea to mix traditional sport rocket flying with these other activates, at least until these darker shades of rocketry are properly embraced and codified.
How do you propose punishing the NARBOT for their transgressions?
I have no such proposals and will suggest none. I simply believe the NARBOT jumped the gun on this or didn't fully do their required homework and I would just prefer to let sleeping dogs lie. If NAR members in the future election cycles want to vote certain NARBOT members out for this, thats their choice to do so.
You do realize that the NARBOT voted unanimously. You'd have to replace them all over at least three years. I think a little public humiliation is enough wrist slapping. It is pointless to continue to criticize the BOT over this issue. I think is worth properly defining the problem and focusing discussion on addressing the real problem, rather than some NARBOT witch hunt.
Alan

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On Sun, 9 Jul 2006 19:52:41 -0400, "shockwaveriderz"

I don't know about other places but I have never seen anyone at a TRA launch sell one or a score or hundreds os homebrew motors. Has anyone else? Do you have any evidence that this has happened?
Phil
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phil:
I'm not saying this has ever been done. I was not precise in my language. I was trying to make the point that uncertfied motors and amateur motors used at TRA/EX/Research launches are not sold therefore they do not have to be certfied. I am not accusing or implying that anybody has sold home brew motors at TRA ex/research launches.
does that clarify?
terry dean nar16158
--
"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP"


"Phil Stein" < snipped-for-privacy@ArielSystems.spamsks.net> wrote in message
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On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:23:13 -0400, "shockwaveriderz"

Yes. That is not what I thought you were saying in your original message.
Phil
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It happened all the time in the early days of TRA. I certified with one of those home made motors.
--
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
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On Sun, 9 Jul 2006 19:52:41 -0400, "shockwaveriderz"

Also, have you ever been to a TRA Research launch?
Phil
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phil:
No I have not ever been to a TRA ex/research launch.
terry dean nar 16158
--
"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP"


"Phil Stein" < snipped-for-privacy@ArielSystems.spamsks.net> wrote in message
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On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:24:13 -0400, "shockwaveriderz"

Watch out ! They can be addicitive.
Phil
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On Sun, 9 Jul 2006 15:58:12 -0400, "shockwaveriderz"

As long as you are making the distinction, never certified motors are simply fireworks or amateur motors. Decertified motors are still model rocket motors, and can be stored in collections just like certified motors in communities that prohibit the posession of fireworks (without special permits).

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I don't know any personally.
Phil
On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 13:11:40 -0400, "shockwaveriderz"

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tweak its a simple yes or no question: Let me ask the question to everybody in the NAR/TRA who have been RSO in the past or may be one in the future.
Would you allow uncertfied motors to be used at your NAR or TRA launch? And I'm not talking about previously certfied motors that have now become uncertfied.
One of David's excuses for allowing these uncertfied motors to be used was this was not a NAR/TRA launch, it was a AMA launch. Well the next launch that uses these uncertfied motors will be at a NOVAAR NAR Sport Lauch on August 19th. The FAI competition is now under the auspices of the NAR, so the "its a AMA launch" ruse can't be used this time around. Also the "texas isn't a nfpa state" can't be used because Virginia is a IFC state which may(notice I said MAY) incoporate the NFPA codes .
So will it be ok for this RSO at a NAR sport launch to allow these uncertfied motors to be used, because the NAR prez provides them a waiver? SInce when can the NAR prez waive the IFC/NFPA fire codes in a state?
I was an RSO once recently at a NAR Sport Launch when a uncertfied person tried to use a G75 ( its considered a HPT because of its propellant weight ok?) so I disallowed the launch. And I felt really bad about it,since the modeler had driven 75 miles to fly (he did fly other non-HPR rockets). Does anybody know of the 60 sec rule in the HPR safety code? Well I enforce this.
Its the duty and responsibility of a resposnsible RSO to "just say no" to NAR Prez waivers.
And I wish David, you would have had the courage to do so.
now say something smart and stupid Tweak...
terry dean nar 16158
--
"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP"


"Tweak" < snipped-for-privacy@keslers.removethistosend.net> wrote in message
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snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com says...

According to your idealogy, no one who is not intimately familiar with all laws, that may or may not apply, and/or have not memorized this weeks certified motor list should be an RSO. Fine. You and the 17 other anal retentive twits for whom this crap really matters can go to every launch and RSO.
Because no, I DON'T care if some teensy A motor is on a certified list or not.
Now get bent.
--
Tweak

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well you know what they said tweakerster: you know you have won the debate when they start calling you names....
And no its not my "idealogy".... I have always said from day one it is each individual rocketeers resposnsibility and duty to know as much of the rules,regulations,laws etc that they can so they don't knowingly place themselves in a position of violating such rules, regulations or laws. Its the basis of our regulatory framework Tweak : its called "self regulation". If you are ignoranat of the rules regs and laws, then how can you self -regulate yourself in this hobby.? obviously you can't.
As far as knowing which motors are or are not on the combined certfication list, as a RSO, it would be prudent for him/her to print out a lisiting prior to each launch so he/she can do their job properly. I don't think this i asking too much of RSO's.
Tweak, and where do you personally draw the line at allowing uncertfied moters ? A seems to be ok with you. what about D? G? J ? P? How about we just dump ALL certfication requirements and let anybody who wants to make and sell motors do so with no safety certfication at all.
Yes, I may be anal retentive on this issue; but if you start letting the "little" things go, then its just a matter of time before let increasingly large things go by.... don't you understand that? Don't you see the risks to our hobby ?
I guess not
terry dean nar 16158
--
"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP"


"Tweak" < snipped-for-privacy@keslers.removethistosend.net> wrote in message
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snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com says...

This is easy. If it were to go off in an occupied hotel room and be funny, it's ok.
As to the rest? Zzzzzzzzzz.......
--
Tweak

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So....
Bob Hegwood's I65 that went off in a Danville motel room is ok?
heheh... Sorry... just have to keep the memory of that one alive!
Roy nar12605
says...

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snipped-for-privacy@mindNOSPAMspring.com says...

I don't think he thought that was funny, so no, an I motor would be "right out", especially those of the long burn variety.
:D
--
Tweak

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Tweak wrote:

Anything you're willing to let a 2 year old hold on to while it fires is allowed. -Everything- else is right out! I have alot of nephews....can you tell? Don't forget, you'd have to deal with the wrath of the mother of the 2 year old as well.
I do remember back in my younger years (younger == stupid in my case) we used to play "roman candle wars" where we'd shoot at each other with roman candles....ah, those were the days.
-Aaron
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On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 13:44:09 -0400, Tweak

Ya know .. . A's aren't even good igniters sometime they turn sideways and clog the nozzle.
Phil
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Try taping them to a stick. Christopher Brian Deem NAR 12308 TRA 2256 level II
Phil Stein wrote:

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