Size of a ball turret gunner?

on 12/14/2007 2:53 PM jimbol51 said the following:

It was the hardest to hit as long as the tail gunner was still shooting, otherwise, he'd be the second to go.

My Grandfather was trained as a ball turret gunner but got selected for flight training two weeks before he was scheduled to go to Europe in 43. He was about 5'8" and rail thin.

He spent the rest of the war either in flight training or as an instructor in T-6's

It was generally given the smallest members of the guys trained as aerial gunners, because they were the only ones who could fit in it with any comfort or utility. IIRC, the tail gun position was pretty cramped also in the original form.

Pat

This gun camera footage from a German Bf-110 shows direct hits on the ball turret with cannon fire:

Pat

I keep thinking of the little guy from Fantasy Island and the line he always said..

"the plane!, the plane! "

Craig

I've heard military regulations for WWII cited that a draftee/recruit had to be at least 5 feet tall, 105lbs, possess half there teeth and answer yes to the question "Do you like girls". Dunno if it is true or not - sounds a bit apocryphal.

I looked inside a Sperry turret once inside a B-17, and it seemed like my head barely fit - no chance my 6ft 225 lbs making it in. I made no attempt to climb into the tail gun position either - seemed like a shame to have those nice folks cut that plane off of me.

For my money on the Sperry ball, that was a missed opportunity to put Jerry Maren and the rest of the Singer Midgets from Oz into action. Though I'm sure there were production jobs where the wee folk proved equally invaluable.

WmB

The museum at Lackland AFB museum had a really strange turret turret in it back in 1975. It was for a B-24 and had a domed radar antenna mounted between the guns that allowed it to lock on the target without optical aiming. Between the guns, ammo belts, and radar equipment, I didn't see how a person could even fit in it.

Pat

Also, even only around 60 years ago, people in general were a lot smaller. I think the average height during WWII years was around 5'7", and now it is up to something like 5'9"

And only a couple of years later, the remotely operated turrets appeared on the B-29.

I do docent work with the Collings Foundation when they are in the area. My usual assignment is their B-17 "Nine-O-Nine", pumping people through the nose hatch. I've met a lot of ball turret gunners over the years and all but one were on the small side. The one guy was just shy of six feet and he said that he transfered to waist gunner as soon as he could.

Maintenance continues on their aircraft at every stop. Several years back we needed to lower the belly turret (I don't remember why) for a couple of hours. Teh fed in charge of safety broke the wire sealing the hatch to the turret. He was one of a dozen people who got to climb into the turret. I'm 6', 210 lbs. and I gave up after a few minutes . My knees are just too affected by minor arthritis to fold my way in. One guy about 5'10" 125 lbs. had no trouble getting in, but anybody larger than that just gave up. We cleaned the turret insides and sealed it up again.

The tail position is also cramped, but not comparable to the belly. My oldest son flew back there on "Alluminum Overcast" many years ago at Reno. He was only twelve at the time, so size didn't enter into it.

Tom

Somehow I don't think that would have been a nice place to be when the landing gear wouldn't drop down during a landing. I read about some belly gunners being 'sacrificed' because of that and they had no escape. Don't remember what specific aircraft it was though. Hell of a way to go... John D.

Yeah, we've already discussed this, and the "Amazing Stories" episode with the ball gunner drawing landing gear when they couldn't get the real ones down.

The actuarial info is that it was the safest position in a B-17: surrounded by metal and curled up into a smaller target.

They did make it retractable on the B-24.

Pat

Pat,

I met a guy who had been a waist gunner on a B-17 who told me the same exact story. Apparently the bottom turret gunner was already dead victim of a 30 mm cannon round. They had to belly land the plane which as a result the belly turret was flattened like a pancake. The guy told me stories however of fellow crews having to land their planes with the bottom turret guy NOT dead but very much alive at that moment.................how God awful it must have been................jim

eh? im well over 6 foot, i was taller until i crushed my back, my grandfather too was well over 6 foot

If they landed on grass or soft ground, it might have stayed in one piece, but putting it down of a concrete or asphalt runway would be like holding the ball turret against a huge grindstone. A ditching would probably be worse. If the gunner couldn't free the hatch quickly after hitting the water, he'd have drowned in the turret.

Pat