Prototype Question: Why narrow gauge?

Captain Handbrake@Atlantic Coast Line.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.west.earthlink.net:

Sigh.

Worldwide, *including in Japan* the definition of STANDARD GAUGE is a track width of 1435mm (4'8.5" to you imperial types). THEREFORE, 1067mm (3'6") is narrow gauge.

Case in point: The most common track gauge in Russia is 5'. Yet they call 4'8.5" STANDARD GAUGE, even thguh they have FAR LESS miles of it than they have of 5' track.

By your faulty reasoning, they should call 4'8.5" narrow gauge. They don't. Strange eh ?

You seem both unwilling and unable to grasp you have made a wrongful assumption about a prototype you are evidently VERY ignorant about. You have been corrected a few times, been given ample opportunity to learn and admit this - yet you stubbornly cling to your flawed argument.

What's so difficult about saying sorry and absorbing the presented facts as knowledge ?

Some places they do, some they don't. In the Great Western's 7ft gauge days they called 4'8.5" narrow gauge.

another flame war starting

WRONG

1435mm is NAMED Standard Gauge, it is NOT the standard gauge of the world's railways.

1067mm is NOT named "Narrow Gauge". As far as I know, it does not have a name.

1435mm is "Standard Gauge", 1000mm is "Meter Gauge". Those are the only ones with names that I can think of at the moment.

No, not strange at all. 1435mm gauge has a name

"Everyone calls them "Wide Cabs" too, but that is wrong. All North American locomotive cabs are exactly the same width. Just because everyone does it does not make it right. I am saying one thing, you are saying another. The track gauge of 4" 8-1/2" has a name. It is called "Standard Gauge". Standard gauge has the same name all over the world, pretty much. It has the same name in Japan as in Russia as in Canada, etc. However, in Russia the de-facto standard (preferred and most often used) gauge is 60 inches. This is without regard to the name of the gauge, it is with regard to the most prevalent gauge used there. "Standard Gauge" is NOT the standard gauge of Russia, 60 inches is. therefore, in Russia 4' 8-1/2 inches is, by default, narrow gauge, or, if you prefer, a gauge narrower than the national standard, the name "Standard Gauge" notwithstanding. In Ireland, the standard is 5' 3" (1600mm). In Australia 5' 3" is broad gauge. The Queenslanders up north run 3' 6" narrow gauge. The dominant track Gauge in Oz is Standard Gauge.

This all started when I said that 3' 6" should not be referred to as narrow gauge in New Zealand as it is the standard for that country and is the gauge on which the overwhelming majority of all NZ railway equipment operates. It is the de-facto standard gauge of New Zealand. Am I wrong about that? Does New Zealand operate the majority of its railways on a gauge other than 3'

6"? If not, then any equipment designed to run on 4' 8-1/2" would be too wide to be used there, so then, Standard Gauge (4' 8-1/2") would be broad gauge in New Zealand,. or, if you prefer, A broad gauge, being broader than the national standard.

This is not an argument about railways, it is an argument about semantics.

Captain Handbrake

No, another flame war is NOT starting.

Unless, of course, you confuse correcting someone's repeated errors with flaming.

Then you don't know as much as you think you do. 3'6" is known as "Cape Gauge", or "Kapspur". Elsewhere, it is specifically called "Narrow Gauge" by organisations who own and operate railways built to this gauge, such as JR, or the Kintetsu.

In Australia, 5'3" is referred to as the "Broad Gauge". 60cm lines in Germany are called "Feldbahnen". Implicit in the use of these terms is a specific gauge. No doubt there are others.

Irrelevant, and a specious argument to boot. "Wide Cabs" is a term favoured by railfans and other non-professionals, who are either unaware or unconcerned with the inaccuracy of their terminology. Associations of railroads such as the UIC, and railroad owners/operators such as JR use the term "narrow gauge" because it IS right. Your semantic arguments are irrelevant. Or are you so conceited as to believe your authority on these matters is greater than these organisations?

And the other gauge used in numerous locations throughout Qld is?

Dominant for what reason?

It does, it is named Cape Gauge, from its use in South Africa. Keith Make friends in the hobby. Visit Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.

Captain Handbrake@Atlantic Coast Line.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.west.earthlink.net:

Exactly. So stop arguing semantics and get back to railways.

Me, I'm going back to work on my new layout.

This is a discussion about the origins of narrow gauge. The semantic "argument" is purely in your own mind.

(Although, it's a nice try at deflecting attention from yet another of your f*ck-ups.)

Mark Newton wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@optusnet.com.au:

Mark, I'm not wasting any more breath on this guy ... I'm going to work on my new layout: much more fun, much less whiney ...

JB/NL wrote:a >>

A good idea Jeroen. From what you posted on JRForum, I'd say it's looking very good!

All the best,

Mark.

Mark Newton wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@optusnet.com.au:

Thank you. Used an experimental procedure today to coat and surface the entire thing ... I'm _hoping_ it'll turn out right, if not ... well, then I've learned something.

Neither irrelevant nor specious. Merely used as an example. Certainly not specious, in fact quite true. Do you actually know what specious means? It means having the ring of truth, but actually fallacious. There is nothing fallacious about the observation that the majority of people use the term "wide cab" instead of a correct one.

1435mm along with some dual gauge. What of it?. In Qld the 1067mm gauge is the standard at present.

How the hell should I know? Ask someone in the railway ministry if you need to know. Because the Australians have decided to make most of their railways the same gauge so that their equipment can be used more effectively would be my guess. I guess it has to be that way, although I have always thought that the 5' 3" broad gauge or the Russian 1524mm is a better choice for railways and should have been the world standard.

I. K. Brunel had the right idea with his seven-foot gauge Great Western Railway. Unfortunately Stephenson beat him out in the political arena and in 1849 British Parliament decreed that the narrow gauge of 4' 8-1/2" would be the gauge used for all future railway construction in GB. The Continet followed suit such that 4'

8-1/12" became the de-facto standard for virtually all of Europe; Western Eurpoe at any rate. So then, by that bit of information there is an example of 4' 8-1/2" being termed "narrow gauge". You could say then that the narrow gauge of 4' 8-1/2" is the standard gauge.

My whole point at the beginning of this was that the use of the term "narrow gauge" implies that there is another, wider gauge in use that is the dominant standard. In North America this is certainly true. It seems to hold for Oz as well. In NZ there is only 1067mm which is their national standard. There is little or no 1435mm trackage there so why call it narrow gauge? It isn't narrow gauge, it is the ONLY gauge.

Captain Handbrake

It has nothing to do with the origins of narrow gauge. It has nothing at all to do with the origins of narrow gauge. It has only to do with the overuse of the term to apply to anything that is not

4' 8-1/2" gauge. It was never about the origins of narrow gauge. Do you understand not about the origins of narrow gauge? It is about semantics, not about the origins of narrow gauge. I don't care about narrow gauge. I don't know where it originated and I don't care. I would never get into any discussion about the origins of narrow gauge because I don't give a damn about narrow gauge. If you want to debate the origins of narrow gauge you won't do it with me, because I don't care. You've been smoking too much.

Captain Handbrake

Four foot eight and a half inches is Standard Gauge. Period.

All other guages are either narrow or broad when compared to Standard gauge.

If a country contains nothing but 36" or metre gauge trackage, Standard Gauge on that country is still four feet eight and a half inches.

Why the hell do you think it's called "Standard Gauge", 'cause it's the bloody standard to which all others are compared, that's why!

Jeeze.

Yes and no. Standard Gauge is 4' 8-1/2" There is no argument that the name "Standard Gauge" has been applied to 4' 8-1/2 inches. It is called that over most of the world. This is not now and never was the point of any argument. Not on my part anyway. I only siad that Standard Gauge is not the standard for NZ, so why is it necessary to make a point of continually stating that NZ is narrow gauge, when in fact it is the ONLY gauge in use there. There is nothing else so it is the gauge standard for NZ.

NZ does not interchange equipment with any other country nor is there any other gauge railway there, so why do you want to compare their standard to one that is of no consequence, use, benefit or detriment to them? In NZ the gauge standard is

1067mm. There is no 4' 8-1/2 inches. The whole point back at the beginning was/is that it is not necessary to refer to NZ railways as narrow gauge because it's the ONLY gauge there. There is nothing wider to define that which is narrow. Narrower than what? Nothing that exists in NZ. There is no standard gauge, broad gauge, or any other kind of gauge. There is only "the gauge" which happens to be 1067mm.

And don't come back with more definitions about standard gauge. I understand perfectly well what is being said. I am just determined to insist that in a place like NZ where there is isolation from other systems and there is one and only one track gauge, it is what it is and is not subject to comparison with that which has no bearing or effect upon it. Thus, I maintian that 1067mm gauge, while not standard gauge, is not narrow gauge in NZ, but is simply the NZ gauge standard, and should not be classified as "narrow gauge" Now, if it will keep y'all from having a series of strokes and heart attacks I will be happy to refer to it in any furfther topics as " The NZ gauge standard" and y'all can call it what ever you please. But I am not going to call it narrow gauge. If you want to call it narrow gauge then go right ahead. I know what you mean when you say "wide cab", "tension pin", "drill bit", and "friction bearing" too, but you're still using the wrong term.

Captain Handbrake

major typo here that should read 21 feet!!!!!! Beowulf

Gee Whiz! That was a fellow trying to agree with you!

CTucker NY

Wrong, yet again. Other gauges have been, and are still used in NZ. 3'6" is not the only gauge used in NZ. Before making these dogmatic proclamations, has it EVER occured to you to check them for accuracy first???

Wrong, wrong, wrong! Secondhand locos and rollingstock have gone to NZ from elsewhere in the world, and there is 4'8-1/2" there as well.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! There is 4'8-1/2" there.

Check your facts before spouting off any more of this bullshit. You obviously know SWEET FUCK ALL about railways in New Zealand, and it shows.