Question on Stuart Open Crank Engine

I am not sure whether this falls into Model Engineering or Stationary Engines categories.
I watched with interest a Stuart Turner Sandhurst open-crank engine
fetch 1200 on eBay yesterday and after studying the blurb I found it was 150cc and capable of several BHP. I thought it was a scale model of a larger engine and maybe it was, but it could also be a full scale engine in its own right. I know a little about ST as I have built a little Stuart-Turner V twin steam model from a kit, and have a Stuart- Turner P5 generator for emergency house power, but I don't know much more about the range they produced.
So, my question is, are Stuart-Turner the only company that seem to make engines (or engine kits) ranging from scale model to full size without a gap in the middle ?? If they made full-scale and models then I could understand, but they seem to have pitched some in the middle where you are not quite sure if it is one or the other - which seems most unusual.
Thanks Steve
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wrote:

S-T have a long history of manufacturing both model and small-hp engines.
I have an old S-T catalogue that lists both models, engines and pumps.
I don't know of another company that has such a diverse range, although these days the small engines are no longer, but the models and pumps are still produced, albeit by different companies IIRC.
Peter -- Peter A Forbes Prepair Ltd, Rushden, UK snipped-for-privacy@prepair.co.uk http://www.prepair.co.uk http://www.prepair.eu
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ST were making model IC & steam engines & small (ie under 2hp) IC engines before 1902-ish. Forgotten quite when they started, but in the early years they supplied castings & finished engines. The Sandhurst was later & splendid, & I last saw new castings for that at Henley in the '60s. Subject to condition, 1200 is a good price for such a rare lump.
Most of their model engines were not scale -- I can't remember one that had a well-known prototype source, not that my memory is any guide ... They were always of the current style when first introduced, & many changed little -- right through 'til recently. I've lost touch with them now, as they left Henley some time back & their business was split up.
The sub-2hp HP engines were sometimes built as projects, but most were designed for real work -- driving lathes, compressors & suchlike. They were not cheap, & were considered to be the best castings around for several decades. (As a stone-broke just- married youngster, I used to get piles of their reject castings from the local scrappie for pennies....)
I still have a few ST engines -- 8hp twin marine, several smaller modern 2 strokes from the 30's & 40's, & my favourite, a 1hp lamp start built in 1904 with a handsome flyball governor.
They also made a delightful motorcycle, but it seems to have been more a demo of their engineering prowess, rather than a commercial project. Very few built, & would have been extremely expensive.
Their main revenues came from their low-HP IC engines, & their steam engine models -- some of which did yeoman service as launch engines, either as single cylinder or multis.
They also were major manufacturers of small pumps & other ancillaries.
Copies of their early catalogues often turn up. I have a few from the '00's, '20's & '30's, & the odd more recent one. Fascinating to see how long some engines did remain listed, especially the larger steam models.
Colin
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Thanks for the info,
I wonder if there is a website out there that lists all the different models and when they were available.
Now you point it out I think most of them are at best 'based on' an old design or completely novel, and as such are not scale models.
I have a Bonds catalogue from 1935 which lists 17 ST steam engines and three IC engines including the Sandhurst (hadn't spotted that before) and an air-cooled flat twin.
Steve
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wrote:

We have an original S-T 1923 catalogue, the flat-twin is in there too, plus a range of small IC engines.
Peter -- Peter & Rita Forbes Email: snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk http://www.oldengine.co.uk
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Sounds like they made more than one flat twin IC engine then. In the 1935 Bond's catalogue it is described as 'The New Stuart "A.E." Petrol Engine', which can be supplied as either air or water cooled.
There's other gems in this catalogue too, like the Bonzone mill engine - great name ! Sounds more like a cross between dog food and a children's comic !
Steve
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wrote:

Described as the "AE Petrol Engine", air or water-cooled, 1.5" bore X 1.5" stroke, 1/2 bhp, 14.5" long, 6.25" wide, 4.25" high. Pushrod operated OHV.
Looks like they were only offered as a kit in 1923.
Peter -- Peter & Rita Forbes Email: snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk http://www.oldengine.co.uk
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They had gone metric by 1935. 34.5mm bore, 32mm stroke, 3/4 bhp (I think thats 30cc per cylinder). Crankshaft and camshaft run on ball bearings. "Especially suitable for boat work". Only available as a set of castings for 3 19s 6d. But you could build it as a single cylinder as well.
Maybe they dropped it from the range and then brought it back, hence calling it new. We are talking about 12 years time difference.
I wonder how many there are out there ?
Steve
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wrote:

Not many is my own guess. That was a fair bit of money, even in the 1930's, so assuming they sold a few hundred, that would leave probably 10 or so extant these days, possibly a few more if you include collections/museums.
I've never seen one in the flesh, and the late Brian Sharp didn't have one in his collection of S-T stuff.
Peter -- Peter A Forbes Prepair Ltd, Rushden, UK snipped-for-privacy@prepair.co.uk http://www.prepair.co.uk http://www.prepair.eu
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Me being into both ST stuff & flat twins in general, I'd just love one of these 1/2 bhp flatties, but I too have neither seen one in the flesh nor even in a decent photo.
I'd be very grateful if someone could scan me a pic from a catalogue & further pleased if I had their permission to stick it on Webshots in my "Stuart Turner Devices" album. As a matter of interest, it attracts a steady rate of over 200 hits a week & is the most visited album I have after Merlin engines.
Peter's estimate of their survival is optimistic if none of us have ever seen one!
regards,
Kim Siddorn
Teach a child to be polite and courteous and you create an adult that can't merge a car into faster traffic.

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wrote:

Better to be optimistic that the other thing! :-))
The flat twin parts are also shown as a single cylinder version.
I'll get those pictures scanned for you, Kim, try and do it tonight or over the weekend, I'll be in Leeds tomorrow.
Peter -- Peter A Forbes Prepair Ltd, Rushden, UK snipped-for-privacy@prepair.co.uk http://www.prepair.co.uk http://www.prepair.eu
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I see in the '35 ST catalogue that they show the AE twin as 0.5hp @2k rpm, 0.75@3k, & 1.3@4.2k. There's no mention as to how old, but there are no testimonials re performance, which ST often liked.
The AE single was definitely winning model boat races in 1932.
Same catalogue shows a very pretty 30cc Lightweight engine, sitting in someone's palm. 9 complete.
The Sandhurst is described as designed for engineering students at the Royal Military College, Sandhurst. Funnily enough, it is given as 2x3", 'tho as Peter says ST use metric dimensions elsewhere in the catalogue -- the British have never quite got the metric thing .... No date of introduction, 'tho the text reads as if it were a recent addition -- but, knowing ST, I wouldn't put it past them to use the same text for the lifetime of the engine. 8.75p for the whole caboodle, you do the machining. 40p if u want them to machine & grind the cylinder bore.
The 600 was largest & best of all. 0.75hp@700rpm. 2.5x4.5" 6.87p approx, bare. There are a few on the rally scene.
Colin
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wrote:

http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk/misc/StuartAE1.jpg
http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk/misc/StuartAE2.jpg
Peter -- Peter & Rita Forbes Email: snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk http://www.oldengine.co.uk
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1935 version looks like this :
http://uk.geocities.com/iron_museum/UnlinkedImages/ST-AE-Engine-1935.jpg
Steve
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Thanks for the images, much obliged.
regards,
Kim Siddorn
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Kim Siddorn wrote:(snip)

There is/was one in the Brighton and Hove Engineerium collection. Anyone know if that museum is up and running again after its last minute repreave?
Nick H
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Wow, what a story that was. Such sadness and such joy, how many people came from all over the world to buy in the auction and even after it was delayed and then the announcement, how many were happy that the collection hadn't split up - even applause.
I think you should pitch this up as a new post to see what people know. I would dearly like to visit it this year if its open (and the Chalk Pits Museum in Amberley). That would make a nice tour South from Cheshire. In fact I think I can see a holiday plan forming.
Steve
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Nothing has been heard from the British Engineerium since the original press release following the sale. There doesn't seem to be any activity on the site but I'll try to find out what is happening, I pass there 3 times a week. BTW the Amberley Chalk Pits Museum has changed its name to The Amberley Working Museum. I use to be a volunteer there about 8 years ago until the railway contingent took priority. Nowadays I can't afford their prices!
If you are holidaying in the area here is a little known site near Hastings that is worth a visit, and it's free! http://www.southernwater.co.uk/homeAndLeisure/daysOut/bredeSteamEngines/bredeOpenDays.asp
Fred
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Thanks for that Fred.
I used to be a member of the Brockham Museum before it moved to Amberley. That was nearly 40 years ago. There were some interesting early diesels in the collection, and I dare say the same engines will still be there, even if a new generation of people are looking after them.
If the Engineerium is closed then thats fine, just so long as it will open again sometime in the future. The first time I heard of it was when someone pointed out the auction catalogue - and I couldn't believe the contents. Maybe they should put the auction catalogue up on their website.
Steve
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In message

Very interesting it is too. I've been there a couple of times as my partner leves only a few miles from it. Apart from the engines, there's a civil defence bunker with quite a lot of original stuff left and an amateur radio station operated by a Brede Steam ARS in part of the bunker
http://www.radioclubs.net/bsars/about.php
Well worth a visit!
Cheers
Guy
--
Guy Morgan
nb Virgo, WFB, Stockton GU
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