The 'unknown' engine

Well, I finally picked this up today:

In our previous discussions nobody recalled seeing one before. A couple of people suggested that it may be French or at least not British. Now that I have it safely ensconced in my workshop I can tell you................ I still don't know what it is.

Eric Brain contacted me with a kind offer to enter it into the 'Identity and Assistance' section of SEM (an offer which I will take up) and said that David Edgington had looked at it but was not too sure what it was either.

What I have discovered is that the magneto is a Fellows 'Baby' (British made in London apparently), the carburettor is made by the Vici Carburettor Co (also made in London) and the screw threads are BSF, BA, BSW and BSPP. I'm guessing that this might well make it British. Oh, and the build quality is very good.

Has anyone come across a Fellows magneto before?

It seems that the head design may have been Lister inspired with the valve access ports in the top and the peculiar offset push rod / valve stem alignment. In fact, with the exception of the water inlet position, it could almost be a scaled down Lister A head.

One thing that is apparent is that it is small (I'm guessing that it's about

0.5 HP) and that it's very cute! (I seem to be getting sadder with age!).

It's going to need a complete rebuild before I can run it as the previous owner had it apart and rebuilt it without gaskets (they were apparently paper and torn, so he threw them away!) The governor seems to be seized (probably assembled incorrectly) all nuts and bolts are loose, the magneto possibly needs rebuilding and obviously there are no cooling or fuel tanks - other than that it's ready to go!

Regards

Mark

To throw in a suggestion - the engine looks very similar to the small engines that Capel used to build which looked to all intents and purposes like a Lister L that shrunk in the wash! Good luck with the restoration.

Regards

Dan

I would not get too fixated on the Lister looks. That was a common style of arrangement worldwide around WW1. ttfn Roland

manufacturer

Thanks Nick, that's useful.

Mark

It's pretty distinctive, one might say once seen never forgotten, so ID & ASST in SEM seems like a good idea. Does it all look 'of a piece' including the outrigger bearing?

Although the engine looks a bit of a 'bitsa' I think it is all original. The magneto is bolted onto a cast aluminium bracket that was clearly made for both the engine and the magneto. The outrigger bearing is a bronze casting which is the correct height (i.e. if the engine, magneto bracket and outrigger bearing were to be bolted to a flat board - with a slot for the flywheel - everything would line up nicely). The pad on the cylinder was clearly intended for the carburettor flange etc.

I can see no evidence of modifications or modern 'bodgery'.

I'm assuming the engine was designed for general purpose use because of the multiple pully's and the outrigger. The crankshaft is continuous (I think) through the middle of the pully set.

One thing that strikes me as odd is the lack of any obvious means of starting the thing. The crankshaft ends with a screw driver slot (and is round), there's no longitudinal slot for a traditional cranking handle or the facility for a rope start. So unless the crank handle engaged with the screw-driver slot and was 'ratcheted', I'm at a loss to know how it was started. All suggestions welcomed!

Mark

Dan,

I've had a look at a few Capel's and can only find reference to the XX, the XL oil engine and the 'Excelite' unit, none of which fits the bill - the XX and Excelite are more sturdy looking and, as you say, look a bit like shrunken Lister L's. Do you know of others? I've done a web search and looked in the A-Z but they are pretty rare, there's not a lot of info. out there.

Mark

Any photo's yet?

Hi Nick,

I've just set up a Webshots album:

Having now stripped the engine, the only other info. I've found is that the bore and stroke are 2 3/8" X 2 1/4" respectively (which makes it about

160cc) and there is either W8 or Ws cast into the aluminium governor weights.

Other than this, the only other thing I've found is that the magneto is working so it should run!

It's booked into the 'Identification and Assistance' section of SEM (thanks to Eric Brain) in the next couple of months.

Regards

Mark

Thanks for that, good to get a proper look at the thing though it doesn't help with the ID! Do the pulleys and outrigger still look like part of the original scheme of thing now you have had it stripped? I must admit I thought V belts were a 1930's introduction which doesn't quite square with the generally early 20's look of the bulk of it.

Good luck with ID & ASST.

Nick H.

"Mark Howard" wrote (snip):-

Curiouser and curiouser - early MFI perhaps :-)

I'd certainly be interested to know. No V belts as such in 1913 mechanical world yearbook, BUT, it does show round rope drives running in V grooved pulleys. Unfortunately next edition I have is 1954 by which time "moulded V rope drives" as they term them, were clearly well established.

Nick,

Yes, I think the crankshaft extends nearly to the end of the 'V' pulleys. The outrigger bearing has a long 'female' phosphor bronze shaft that slides into the pulleys and over the tapered(?) crankshaft.

I haven't yet got the pulley assembly apart as the bolts that hold the 'V' pulleys onto the flat belt pulley are recessed with a ridiculously small clearance. I'm going to have to make up a special box spanner or turn down a socket to get them off.

It's sort of interesting to see that each of the 4 bolts holding the pulleys on has 1,2,3 or 4 stamped into them and the pulley itself has a 7 stamped on it. The piston has an 8 cast into. Perhaps it was an early airfix kit - fit part 7 onto part 6 and fix with part nos. 1,2,3 &4 :))

You raise an interesting point about v-belts being introduced later than the '20's. I'll have to some more research!

Mark

Walter Geist of Allis Chalmers, in Jan 1925, applied for the patent of what, later became known as the "Vee belt drive". His successful patent was #1662511, granted in March 1928. By 1933, AC had licensed 11 power transmission companies to manufacture the belts & drives.. Apparently provided welcome financial returns during the Depression.

However in the UK, R & J Dick Ltd had a patent, #235657, granted in June,

1925 for a belt with vee shaped blocks riveted to a flexible band. This is advertised in Kempe's 1928 Engineering Year Book, which by then, has a section of Vee Belt drives of the AC patent.

Tom

Tom

Thanks for that Tom. Sometimes this NG really does it's job!

Thanks Tom,

An excellent piece of work!

Mark

Vee belts were certainly in use before the First War. My Sun-Vitesse has one that connects the rear wheel to the engine shaft ;o)). It is not the same size as later vee belts, but the profile is certainly V shaped.

Hot fog enthusiasts will know more than I, but were not stationary steam engine rope drive pulleys V shaped with the expectation that the heavily doped rope would take on the shape of the groove?

-- Regards,

J. Kim Siddorn, Regia Anglorum

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This is a belt that we would recognise as a modern style vee belt? Interesting, as any "vee belts" of that era consisted of blocks connected by flat links & pins, the majority having leather blocks.

Tom

Vast snip

My mother was born in Rose & Crown street in Warrington. I remember as a Youngster going into the Whittle belt works across the road. AFAIK these were the main belts you describe.

Dave Croft Warrington

Small world...

Was not two minutes ago, peering into an old (1912) catalogue where Whittles' Link-Grip Belting was listed. Leather & steel links.

Came in sizes from 3/8" to 1" in 1/8" increments then 1-1/4" Priced from 2/- to 4/6d a foot Half links 6d..

There other listings of V-Shape Motor Cycle & fan belts: Raw hide, Chrome leather or three-ply tanned leather..

Tom