Diesel Brake Tenders question

Hi all,
So, Diesel Brake Tenders; were they usually in front of the locomotive?

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Regards,
Jim M

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"No" not on the Southern (B.R.) take a look on here http://www.semg.org.uk/diesel/dbt.html and http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/show_collection.php?id $250
All the best Steve
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"Jim M" wrote

They didn't normally change them around at the end of each trip, so generally I'd say 50/50 in front/behind.
John.
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Officially they should have been behind the locomotive: "Except during shunting movements brake tenders may not be propelled". However, there is plenty of photographic evidence to the contrary.
Simon.
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Yeah, I wonder why though. Things were dif'rent in them days... the driver was king, and all that.
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Regards,
Jim M

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just found this from a link in abpr
a 47 propelling with minerals behind
http://www.rroast.freeserve.co.uk/frame/d1624.html

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One of my occasional posts!
I can only speak of operations of DBT's in the North East of England, were the answer would be, "most of the time".
Speaking to a number of railwaymen in the N.E. that had direct operational experience with DBT's (for an oral history project)it would seem that DBT's would be coupled to a loco on a semi permanent basis for weeks at a time and never be shunted to be specifically at the head of a train.
I have been collecting photographs of DBT's in operation for many a year and the phots show DBT's being propelled approx 90% of the time. I appreciate that this contadicts the "never be shunted statement above" Some of the photographs indicate that it was a regular practice during "light" engine movements between Consett and Tyne Yard for the loco to propel both a DBT and brake van. I have a couple of phots of type 37's hauling both square type DBT's & consists passing Margam steelworks but can't say that this is indicitive of South Wales working practice? Look out over the coming months for a DBT article in the popular railway press that should shed more light on operating practices, reasons for development etc on the DBT's
Regard's, The Three Rivers Rambler
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Just went and googled this and found
http://www.semg.org.uk/diesel/dbt.html
-- Regards Gray
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Yeah, it does a bit! *confused*

Thanks for the interesting info anyway. In my modest library I have plenty of reference as to the construction of the DBTs, but only one picture of one in use. It's being propelled.

Oh yes? What sort of press? The heritage railway sort?
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Jim M

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The Modelling sort.
Here is a bit of a DBT bibliography.
Locospotters Annual                    Ian Allan        1964
BR Standard Freight Wagons(D Larkin)            D.Bradford Barton     1975    ISBN 0 85153 240 3
British Railway Wagons Cattle & Brake Vans(G Gamble)    Chenoa Publications    1997    ISBN 1 900298 05 8
The Railway Magazine (article by Colin J Marsden)                December 1995
Diesels in the North East(David Allen)            O.P.C.        1984    ISBN 0 86093 262 1
British Railway Wagons"the first half million" (Don Rowland)    David&Charles    1985                  Second edition    Leopard        1996    ISBN0 7529 0378 0
Chris Leigh wrote a modelling article for a 1966 Model Railway Constructor and BR's regional Freight train Loads Book give a paragraph of rules relating to DBT's. Some of the rules being: 60 mph speed limit when being drawn, 45mph when propelled. Never more than two DBT's to be propelled. DBTs's to be classed as part of the loco equipment. When DBT's are in use special care must be exercised when undertaking rule 69. Under no circumstances must a DBT be loose shunted.
Hope the above is of help.
TRR
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Ooooooooh...
Yes deffinitely, thanks again.
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Regards,
Jim M

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wrote:

I'm sure I have seen a photograph somewhere of a class 24 propelling 2 brake tenders while at the head of a long coal train.
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Bear with me on this point:
Euslin Bruce was an employee of Sultzer. He had an interest in photography hence he was asked to take a number of official Sultzer pix. After Ian Allan's Feb 1961 decision to allow advertising on the front cover of Trains Illustrated, Mr Bruce's photographs were used to illustrate Sulter's front cover advertising the magazine.
Ian Allan must have been suitably impressed with his pix as they published a compilation book of Mr Bruces work. Can't find the book at the moment but there is a colour photograph of D6 entering Toton yard with a class 8 mineral train. D6 is sandwiched between two DBT's.
The photograph is excellent for comparison purposes, as it illustrates the distinctly different tumblehome profiles of Stanier/BR1B bogied DBT's and the Gresley bogied variant.
Cheer's, TRR
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TRR - the book you are thinking of is "Diesel Heyday - Sulzer Diesels in the 1960s", Ian Allan, 1989. That photo is a favourite of mine. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Gresley bogied examples were recycled coaches, it wasn't just the bogies but the rest of the body including the elliptical roof was made by cutting up old coaches. Presumably the LMR variants were built from LMS hence the different profile.
The ruling on propelling that I quoted earlier is from the WTT General Appendix.
Simon.
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lamps on the front. This was done for operational convenience. In later years they were painted bauxite (they must have joined the fitted wagon fleet) and were always the first vehicle next to the locomotive. regards, Steve

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if you look in the phots on the previously mentioned web sites, you can clearly see there are lamp brackets that will allow the standard four-disc head-codes to be displayed... obviously intended to be propelled.

oil
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