Most surprised to see how the once quite superb 'Fox Transfers' website has now deteriorated to the point of being almost un- navigable, and devoid of its better features..
I much prefer the new version - I could actually find what I was looking for! Each unto their own....
Cheers Richard
Robt P said the following on 15/02/2008 08:48:
I'm with Richard - I prefer it and could find things much more easily!
Robt P wrote in news:5018c56b-f7df-48f0- snipped-for-privacy@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
Ditto what Paul and Richard have said, the new site is much, much better. I may even order from them now, certainly havn't bfore - and that was due to the quality of their site.
Me too
Aw
Right...that's me hung, drawn and quartered. I'll be on an early Nottingham bus in the morning (trains too unreliable) and jump off Trent Bridge :) A final Cheers... Robt P.
Robt P wrote in news:453c44af-9858-44a1- snipped-for-privacy@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
That's nothing, you should have seen what they did to me when I suggested that the 009 gauge society could make a bit of money (and popularise the gauge to boot) by actually selling to non-members. You'd have thought I?d just sold my soul to the devil to hear them go on about corporation tax and nonsense like that.
Its very simple, just phrase your comment as a question without giving anything away. Then if everyone agrees with you, eagerly admit your opinion, if not, step back quietly - nothing lost.
Same as dealing with the wife (spouse).
Cheers, Simon
They may have been badly phrased replies, but calculating corporation tax on external sales is a huge accounting nightmare for a society.
If you think its such a wonderful idea, volunteer to do the job (selling to non-members, calculating the tax due, keeping adequate records against Revenue inspection) for the society.
I'm not in the 009 Society, but if someone volunteered to do the whole job, and I felt they were capable of doing it and would keep on doing it, then I would not object.
- Nigel
"Nigel Cliffe" wrote in news:fp67h7$q52$ snipped-for-privacy@news.albasani.net:
Just do what other charities do, have a commercial trading arm that is run as a business outside of the actual charity with profits being paid to the charity. Tax liabilities to the charity re the trading drop to zero and considering the amount of trade the typical model railway gauge society actually does in a year it'd be doubtful if they'd even be liable for VAT let alone anything else.
I'm sure most societies have accountants and so forth as members, they could explain it far better than I.
BTW I meant to say the above when I raised the issue last time, regrettably work kept me away from the computer until the debate had gone stale.
You make it sound as though it's some form of onerous chore, it need not be if set up properly. Other traders (who do have real tax liabilities - as opposed to presumed ones) manage perfectly well.
And as you?ve guessed, neither am I although in all fairness I ought to add they were very helpful in replying to a couple of emails when I was considering moving in to the gauge.
Unless they were very sucessful, they would be under the VAT threshold. Charities are not the same thing as a model railway club though, charities exist, in theory, to help others, and most pay someone to do accounts and other business paperwork out of the funds raised (hence my cynicism). Not many clubs could afford that luxury, and anyone taking dealing with HMG and all the associateded threatening letters they will revieve would be very brave and have plenty of spare time.
I'm sure they do, but the day an accountant does anything for free it will be very cold ;-)
It is *extrememly* onerous, and yes I am set up properly - believe me I have much better things to that sit up until 3.00am trying to find a 1p rounding error which I couldn't give a damn about - and not be paid a simngle penny for doing it! Those who work in accountancy should be given a completely dis-assembled engine and made to re-assemble it, within 10 hours or be fined £1000, with only insturctions written by a total expert for another, using only engineering terminology and similar level assumptions about technical ability. Then they would know how us traders feel when we get a dammed silly form to fill in.
Sorry to rant, but those who don't run a small business have no idea at all what is involved - and that includes those who regulate business and those managers in large business who only see one small aspect of a company, or are in a senior position and have no idea what has to be done to produce that "simple report" that is covered in one line in a book they once read while doing their MBA. I won't even start on civil servants who expect us to put ourselves through hoops, yet won't work one minutes overtime without pay.........
The next question is always "Why do you do it then?" and the answer is dead simple - we don't get the above treating us like cattle, telling us to what to wear, when we can have a coffee etc, which is worth all the grief - just!
Cheers Richard
Well, a model railway society wouldn't qualify to become a charity, however, taking the general principle forwards..
Most reasonably large charities with trading arms are sufficiently big to pay professional staff.
Corporation tax starts from £0.01 profit. Accounting for the "trading arm" needs to cover all costs, R&D, depreciation, stock losses, etc, when coming to a figure for "profit" which is then subject to corporation tax. There needs to be a means to purchase the technology/artwork for components from the main society (where the members tend to do the development). So being "arms length" doesn't actually change the accounting requirements. And, to be "arms length" one needs a legal identity to run the "trading arm", in practise a limited company, so yet more compliance issues for the volunteer club members to administer.
VAT liability comes from turnover; needs to be £64,000 per annum to require registration.
Charities frequently set up trading arms so they can then side-step the constraints of charity law. The trading company does not need to comply with charity law, yet can pass its profits back to the charity. The trading company can also limit its liabilities by operating as a limited company.
The advisor I used for tax law when a society treasurer was a very senior insolvency lawyer (who happened to be a member). His advice was to avoid shed loads of work to deal with corporation tax and potential tax audits which come from external trading.
Volunteer to do it for someone, then report back on how much hassle separating the legal identity of the club from trading arm, and complying with the tax rules, proves to be. I know a couple of societies who would be interested in a "low hassle" external trading method.
- Nigel
The Historical Model Railway Society did. It is Registered UK Charity No. 273110
A special case - to do with preservation, publication of material and education.
I really don't think you would get a normal model railway society (national or local town) past the charity commissioners these days; I did discuss registration with a lawyer friend some years ago, and the conclusion was that it might have been possible in the 1990's, but not now as the rules on what the charity does for the wider community are tighter.
- Nigel
In America a lot of them are part of historical societies which are considered educational.
My local one is upstairs in the former New York Central station that served both Franklin D. Roosevelt's home and estate and that of Cornelius Vanderbilt. They have done a wonderful job of restoration.
But this isn't unique. Most of the clubs around here are in disused railway stations which they maintain. The communities like because it is part of local history.
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