Lionel new O Gauge... Stourbridge Lion

OK, so I reviewed my sources and Stourbridge Lion and John Bull are not the same, John Bull being built by Stephenson... question remains.. where in Britain would that type of 0-4-0 be found. David

As delivered John Bull was a standard Stevenson Goods engine and as such might be found on any of the early railways. I think the Liverpool and Manchester had some. The pilot truck and cowcatcher, and the covered tender were American modifications. 0-4-0s like this (as a design) did not last very long, being superceded by 0-6-0 and 0-4-2 designs. The extra axle allowed a heavier, better running engine - the

0-4-0 was unsteady due to its short wheelbase. in the same way that the 2-2-0 passenger engines were superceded by the 2-2-2.

Stourbridge Lion was a dead end. It was similar to some of the earlier Stevenson locomotives but these were already obsolete by the Rainhill trials in 1829.

Foster Rastrick only built four locomotives. Three for the USA and one for the Canterbury and Whitstable Railway in England. This one id preserved:

The caption says Rocket but is wrong. It is the Agenoria at the National Railway Museum, York.

Which one?

_Stourbridge Lion_ was an identical twin to _Agenoria_, now in York Museum after a long career in industrial service (ended in the 1870s, IIRC), so "on a colliery line" would be a good answer for her. As to "John Bull", she's a Stephenson standard product, a "Sampson" type (four-coupled version of the "Planet" class) - so just about anywhere in the 1830s and

40s...

Looking at their on line catalogue I see they have brought the Hall and Coaches that were produced for a Harry Potter set out as a Shakespeare Express for 2008. Line 5 of the description will have GWR worshippers choking. Any one know how these Lionel Halls shape up, An O gauge set could make an unusual present for the Nephew. Must be a limited Market for them, most North Americans will not be interested in the GWR and most British will not be aware that Lionel make such a set. Suspect they are "left over" Harry Potter Stock.

G.harman

Lionel's main market is in the USA where three rail coarse-scale AC outsells 2-rail by an order of magnitude.

They had relative success with their Thomas sets and I think they expected the same for Harry Potter.

The whole country likes Thomas - it has been on children's television here for years. While some shops sold the Hornby Thomas, it wasn't generally available.

But the religiously conservative parts of the USA don't like Harry Potter so there is automatically a smaller market. In addition I suspect that most parents who bought Harry Potter trains bought the Bachmann OO which was in most model train shops here.

Lionel aren't going to have many 3-rail AC customers in the UK. It's like going back to the dark ages.

Their Thomas was overscale wasn't it, Gauge 1 running on Gauge 0 track?

(kim)

Percy was way over scale. Thomas not quite so much. But closer to 7mm than 1/4". My club's layout has a Thomas that was converted to 2-rail and gets an outing on open days. Visiting kids love it.

For their market I would think they are good fun. ISTR that back when Hornby Dublo was for serious people and Tri-ang decided to put some fun in they took some ideas from Lionel. We know who won that battle. Strange that those who may have had a ducking Giraffe car are now the generation purchasing super detailed models from the Hornby branded successor of Tri-ang.

There is a small and growing following though for some Retro style tinplate trains ,looking at one of the main proponents for such offerings

I see that some of their production was capable of AC as well as DC though they seem to have settled on DC now. Interestingly I see they have a market for Tenders to upgrade the Lionel product so some collectors must be acquiring the Lionel offering. Not a branch of the hobby that would attract me greatly especially given the prices .That said it is fun watching the old Hornby tin stuff and the modern retro whiz around a train set at a show. There is that satisfying rattle and clatter that does not appear from a model diorama despite the skill and long hours that the constructors have put in.

G.Harman

Amyone got any idea when/if/from whom it might be available in .uk? I know it'll need adaptation (re-wheeling, re-wiring) to run on FS O is it's anything like the usual Lionel product, but no-one else is doing anything like this.

That early 1860s junction between a colliery railway and the main line (with those new, hyper-modern Sharp, Stewart goods engines) looks like it might be do-able much sooner than I ever dared hope...

This came up on the 7mm grup a while back. The engine is quite accurate, and one poster reckoned it took a couple of hours to convert to fine scale 2-rail. He'd bought a Hogwarts set, and put the rest on e-bay - the coaches were terrible by all accounts.

If one were in need of a cheap engine and didn't mind some modding, this could very well be a good option.

Cheers Richard

"beamendsltd" wrote

How about a link to a picture of one of these beasts?

John.

I haven't grasped from this discussion whether the Lionel model is a scale model, a (plastic) toy, or a tinplate train. I'd be quite intersted in an O scale Stevenson Loco.

Regards, Greg.P.

.. and one to a picture of the Lion, too. I've not been able to find one, and it's not for lack of looking :(

Not very good but

how Lionel themselves present it.

G.Harman

is how Lionel themselves present it.

Try

There's an artist's impression and a prototype photo.

Greg.P.

[...]

> is how Lionel themselves present it.

It's worth remembering "Traditional O Gauge" means something close to

1:48 scale, while "Standard O Gauge" means roughly 3/16" to the foot scale running on O gauge tinplate track. However, Lionel tends not to tell you the actual scale of its trains, so without seeing the model you can't be sure. OTOH, their designers have been quite good at capturing the look of a large engine even when built to a smaller scale so as to run around tinplate track curves. (Designations such as O-27 refer to the _diameter_ of the track circle in inches.)

From the meagre information in the on-line catalog, I would say that the Shakespeare Express is close to 1:48. Because the John Bull was a much smaller locomotive overall, it's quite possible that it's 1:48 scale, with some compromises so that it can negotiate O-27 track. But withotu actually seeing and measuring it, you can't know.

I've noticed there are some serious factual errors in the catalog, such as describing Kinlet Hall as running on the Great Northern Railway!

My assessment: Lionel makes excellent toy trains, but has little if anything to offer the scale modeller.

HTH

Sorry, I got that backwards. Silly me...

[...]

>> is how Lionel themselves present it.

Hi Wolf,

can you make any sense of their G gauge offerings? They don't seem to get any mention amongst G fans. I did see a "Thomas" years ago before I was interested in such things and I did seem to be reasonable (as a toy).

Regards, Greg.P. NZ

>>>

Not to worry, I wasn't about to buy any of their products, except perhaps that "Great Northern" Hall and the Stephenson loco.

Greg.P.