Hey, Ernie ......

I would like to hear it too.

Well I'm not Ernie but here's my take on it. I'm a drop dealer so I see a lot of different cylinders come through. I can say without a doubt that I've seen lots of cylinders where the cap threads are not in good enough shape to lift a cylinder. In some cases it's nearly impossible to get more than 1 thread or some time less engagement. In other cases the cap is so loose that it barely catches the threads. Then there's the course thread / fine thread issue. I've seen the threads mixed on cylinders many times. Remember that many of the cylinders out there are old. I mean really old. I've seen cylinders made in the 20's come through here.

My first 02 bottle has Luftwaffe proof stamps on the neck. It must have had an interesting life

Gunner

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..." Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of Spotsylvania

I'm not Ernie, but my take is that anyone who spends five minutes thinking about possible failure cases, then still lifts by the cap, is a fool.

scott

As an aside, I ordered a K cylinder of O2 today, which they delivered, as I was busy. I asked the girl what a K weighed, and she said 142# empty and

153# full. Which is slightly different from Dr. Watson's figures of 105#. I guess he uses the hobby sizes.

(Sorry, but I refer to him now in third person, having filed him in the rod oven.)

I was in the oilfield, and between the salt water, corrosive "stuff", and general harsh treatment, I, too saw many a groty cylinder and cap. We would have to smack some to get them loose enough to spin off, or put a spud wrench in the hole, being ever so careful. Others we had to use a 36" Stillson wrench. There were even some we gave up on, red flagged, and returned.

Steve

| >I would like to hear it too. | | Well I'm not Ernie but here's my take on it. I'm a drop dealer so I | see a lot of different cylinders come through. I can say without a | doubt that I've seen lots of cylinders where the cap threads are not | in good enough shape to lift a cylinder. In some cases it's nearly | impossible to get more than 1 thread or some time less engagement. In | other cases the cap is so loose that it barely catches the threads. | Then there's the course thread / fine thread issue. I've seen the | threads mixed on cylinders many times. Remember that many of the | cylinders out there are old. I mean really old. I've seen cylinders | made in the 20's come through here.

Where are you a drop dealer? And if the threads on a cylinder are so poor they won't lift the mere weight of a cylinder, how do you expect them to protect the valve?

| | I'm not Ernie, but my take is that anyone who spends five minutes thinking | about possible failure cases, then still lifts by the cap, is a fool. | | scott

Great, you got any data, or are you just a mouth like you Uncle SteveB.

| >>On 2008-11-10, SteveB wrote: | >>> In case you were purposely not getting involved in the discussion | >>> between | >>> myself and Watson re: lifting cylinders by their caps, I would like to | >>> hear | >>> your take on it. I could be wrong, but I think it's not a good idea. | >>

| >>I would like to hear it too. | >

| > Well I'm not Ernie but here's my take on it. I'm a drop dealer so I | > see a lot of different cylinders come through. I can say without a | > doubt that I've seen lots of cylinders where the cap threads are not | > in good enough shape to lift a cylinder. In some cases it's nearly | > impossible to get more than 1 thread or some time less engagement. In | > other cases the cap is so loose that it barely catches the threads. | > Then there's the course thread / fine thread issue. I've seen the | > threads mixed on cylinders many times. Remember that many of the | > cylinders out there are old. I mean really old. I've seen cylinders | > made in the 20's come through here. | | As an aside, I ordered a K cylinder of O2 today, which they delivered, as I | was busy. I asked the girl what a K weighed, and she said 142# empty and | 153# full. Which is slightly different from Dr. Watson's figures of 105#. | I guess he uses the hobby sizes. | | (Sorry, but I refer to him now in third person, having filed him in the rod | oven.) | | I was in the oilfield, and between the salt water, corrosive "stuff", and | general harsh treatment, I, too saw many a groty cylinder and cap. We would | have to smack some to get them loose enough to spin off, or put a spud | wrench in the hole, being ever so careful. Others we had to use a 36" | Stillson wrench. There were even some we gave up on, red flagged, and | returned. | | Steve | |

I don't care if it weighs 300 pounds, Steve. If the thread won't lift a cylinder, they are not safe to protect the valve.

You're all mouth and no data, and a totally clueless twit when it comes to the strength of materials or threads, or how a cap protects a cylinder.

Watson, I think that the point is, the threads SHOULD be good and the caps SHOULD fit.

And I am sure that in 98% of cases they are good and strong.

The problem that everyone is alluding to, is that sometimes they do not fit or for any reason threads are not strong, or the caps are not threaded properly, and if you overlook that, lifting it by cap may be fatal.

I'll respect Steve's experience any day over your superlative intellect. It's a pretty easy call to make when you can't even control your temper.

Plink. (sound a lightweight makes hitting the bit bucket)

| > Where are you a drop dealer? And if the threads on a cylinder are so poor | > they won't lift the mere weight of a cylinder, how do you expect them to | > protect the valve? | | Watson, I think that the point is, the threads SHOULD be good and the | caps SHOULD fit. | | And I am sure that in 98% of cases they are good and strong. | | The problem that everyone is alluding to, is that sometimes they do | not fit or for any reason threads are not strong, or the caps are not | threaded properly, and if you overlook that, lifting it by cap may be | fatal.

Agreed, but what they insist on ignoring is such a cylinder is not safe to handle or transport under any circumstances either.

Only a fool would argue there are no cylinders out there with ill fitting caps and/or damaged threads. But these cylinders are not safe for handling or transport by ANY method unless supplemental protection for the valve is established. And only a fool would accept one from a supplier. The first thing I do before accepting a cylinder, is unscrew the cap a quarter to half turn, to assure some joker hasn't over tightened it - and screw it back down to assure the cap is completely seated. While the cap is a quarter to half turn loose you can easily feel the fit of the threads. If it doesn't feel good, find out why before you accept it. I have never been given a cylinder with bad threads personally, but had a few I made the supplier break loose before I accepted. Anyone that accepts a cylinder without checking the cap is the fool, no the one that lifts a cylinder in good condition by the cap. As I provided data in an early thread, the size and number of threads on cylinder caps will support hundreds of times the weight of the cylinder.

I stand by my very first few posts. If a cylinders cap and threads are serviceable, and the cap is seated, there is no danger in lifting the weight of the cylinder with a proper hook. If the threads or the cap are worn or damaged, the cylinder should never be filled, much less transported.

Hi Steve,

I can't predict if Ernie will reply or not, but I have a story...

Some 8 maybe 9 years back someone accused, and FLAMED, Ernie for "trying to KILL someone" when he advised a possible filler solution for a poster. The post was normal, the responses were helpful (including Ernies') and instead of a normal discussion one or more participants get excited, (Ernie didn't, and showed good manners as I remember). I'm not one for stickin' around a thread when things "warm up" especially if someone infers another's intent or abilities/faculties based on a post, it gets harder if people choose sides. As I remember, years ago, I did not miss newsgroups for other activities after that mess.

As to the "lifting by the cap thing", sooner or later you'll see it, I "have" done it when there seemed no other solution, and it seems as with almost any way that cylinders are handled, there will be an accident sometime by someone.

I've seen lift truck/platform, lash vertical/horizontal, bear hug, roll up a ramp, cage to platform, 2 man carry and other methods end up in near disaster, and a few injuries. Riggers know that all it takes is a "blink of an eye" to die, so don't blink.

If I "as a neighbor or co-worker" were to discuss lifting by the cap (or any other lifting of any given thing), I would just say "would you put your toe under it while I kick it?". At least the apprentice might pause, realize risk and proceed with due caution and preparation after determining possible failures. Management is another story...

As a manager years ago (quit the rat race "93"), in a 60 man machine shop it seemed every time I saw a cylinder moving (by someone who didn't do it often and not using a cart)), my butt cheeks tightened up, oddly, I often got nervous when large and small things were moved into machine tools by people who did it all the time, some things as large as 30ton. Most of the injuries in that shop were just 50#s or less being handled by hand, go figure. Most of that nervousness was due to personal and observed experience as a young (heart strong) machinist, under very talented people, who would let you run to a point, (lessons are lessons, personal lessons are permanent, good instructors are rare, and I was lucky more than once).

ANYWAY... here's the anecdote...

After going a different path in "93", I ordered 4 "plain collar" cylinders (you still can now if you know how). They came in separate crates, with the DOT title (now not needed in Illinois), and instructions on inspection of the cylinder and removal of the safety wired clip and "wire rope bail" used to lift the cylinder from the crate by the cap and stand it upright. YEP the instructions also clearly stated the bail and clip were not to be used for cylinders in service and must be discarded....

Falling of the truck yesterday didn't affect me, fect me, fect me...

Matt

| >I don't care if it weighs 300 pounds, Steve. If the thread won't lift a | >cylinder, they are not safe to protect the valve. | >

| >You're all mouth and no data, and a totally clueless twit when it comes to | >the strength of materials or threads, or how a cap protects a cylinder. | >

| | I'll respect Steve's experience any day over your superlative | intellect. It's a pretty easy call to make when you can't even | control your temper. | | Plink. (sound a lightweight makes hitting the bit bucket)

It has nothing to do with either experience or intellect, it's a simple matter of physics.

And I can easily control my temper. I don't have to be pissed to recognize Steve is a twit. Read some of his posts over the past few months.

"jppickett" wrote

When I took Aircraft welding school in The

Neatest one I saw was a cage about half full of K sized O2 cylinders being hoisted from a work boat to an offshore platform. The deckhand hooked onto the pad eye with a shackle, a good thing. The crane operator lifted the cage, and before he could swing it over the water, the bottles shifted, and one fell out. It landed - you guessed it - right on the cap. It took off like a bottle rocket. I thought it would be more of a spinning thing, but it went pretty straight. It cleared everything. Remembering it seems to go in slow motion.

Steve

The Dallas gas company fire event was a good example of bottle rockets. I drove by the aftermath a few days later, someone I know worked at a nearby building and saw it first hand before they had to evacuate.

Never never never do it.

Any other questions.

I know 2 people who have had teeth knocked out by lowering cylinders out of their trucks by the cap.

POCK!!! the caps came off and knocked them on their asses.

I have handled 1000's of cylinders and had far too many where the cap came off in my hand. At DIT we go through over 150 oxygen cylinder per month. I have many caps that were held on by rust alone.

Cap threads can have a wide range of grip depending on who made it, how old, how rusty, and what cap is on it.

I have had caps on so tight we could not get them off even with hammers. We had a cap on really tight on a Chemtane bottle. After quite a bit of hammering and wrenching, which made me very uneasy to say the least, we got it to move about a 1/4 turn. Then we heard the gas hissing.

Turns out wasps had built a paper nest inside the cap which had welded the cap to the valve knob.

Since we couldn't budge the cap, and certainly weren't going to hammer on it anymore, we had no choice but to park the tank in the middle of the parking lot with traffic cones around... for 3 days,... waiting for it to empty.

A few years ago Central Welding was trying to sell customers on this new tank with a permanent cap. The cap was a plastic yoke that protected the valve stem, but allowed access on the sides. It meant that even if a regulator was attached the valve stem was still protected.

Problem. Everybody really loved the hand lifting eye for slinging cylinders. Central dropped the product.

So, do I ever lift a bottle by the cap...NO, NO, and NO.

The only safe ways to grab a cylinder for lifting are either a choker sling around the body of the cylinder or a lifting cage with a foot for the bottom of the cylinder to rest on.

Now can we please move on.

So you advocate transporting cylinders with cap so defective the will not even lift a 200 pound cylinder?

I saw that on computer screen when it was first posted in the group. The TV show "Destroyed In Seconds" has it on, and it was even more awesome on my big TV. Lucky none of the cars was hit, and there were several near misses. Those buggers are H-E-A-V-Y!

Steve