Need help with stoarge shelf design - help me get a new welder!

Yeah, there will be a collection of other stuff I'll be able to justify picking up in this project. :) But I've got two angle grinders (4 1/2 & 7) and 2 small air grinders and a bench grinder. Not to mention files and sandpaper :). So I'm already set there. I've been talking welding classes for 4 semesters and have accumulated all the basic hand tools I could justify as a result of that. And I've got 50 years of collecting tools for general house work and woodworking so I've got all the basic hand tools you would expect. I've probably own about 7 drills for example. I've only started to get into metal working however in this past year so the tools specific to metal working is what I'm way behind the curve on. I've only got about 10 vise-grip pliers so far - will probably want to add to that collection before this is over - you can never have enough of those suckers when working with metal. I've owned a set or two of vise grips since I was very young but never really understood their value until I started welding and working with metal.

It's the big stuff I need mostly now like a welder, chopsaw, bandsaw, coldsaw, plasma cutter, break, shear, iron worker, press, tube bender, forge, anvil, mill, lathe, fork lift (oh and lots of space to hold it all). A mig welder and chopsaw however are the only two big pieces missing to let me start doing some real fabrication work at home. Maybe I'll sneak in a oxy-acetylene outfit as well with this project.

Ah, well, I just ordered a Milwaukee chop saw as I got distracted in the middle of writing this post. One less item on the "must get" list. :)

Yeah, we already have a large collection of different sizes and that will only get worse as time goes on. It's damn hard to find the same size storage bin twice in a row. Either you buy 100 at once for a big project or you live with the fact that you will end up with a mixed collection.

Yeah, I can see that working well. Like building a custom cart for my new welder! :)

Are you talking about the stuff that's normally chromed with black plastic busings holding the shelves in place? Used in kitchen applications? If so, I never liked that much. They look cool, but I've seen people try to use them for computers and that just didn't work well. Many components didn't seem to sit right on the shelves (feet would be uneven on the open wire shelf), wires would hang through. They also didn't look all that strong to me - and always seemed to be way to expensive.

I'll have to check out costco to see what they have and I'll look for what you suggest. It might have some value for my application which I'm not thinking of.

Sounds like good advice. And racks for holding steel! :)

Now that I'm thinking more serious about having a welder, all sorts of fun projects are starting to pop into my head.

Well, for anything small enough to fit into my powder coat oven, I've got that covered. But typical shelves would be too large for that. Damn, now I need to build a large custom power coat oven. It never ends. :)

Yeah, I've not had time to do it yet today, but I'm going to go down and look at that area again and think about what the custom-fit approach will allow.

I'm moving towards the idea of pushing most my shop stuff out of the way, and then building custom floor to ceiling (9') built in shelves using steel frame with wood shelves. Maybe I'll use a design with some fixed shelves and some moveable to give more flexibility. More thought and design work required based on all the ideas I got today.

Interesting.

Yeah, I was looking at 1" verticals with 1/4" cross members holding the shelves up. And probably 1" at the bottom and top to form the outer box. I'm now leaning towards 1x1x1/8 angle for vertical members and 3/4x3/4x1/8 angle for cross members to hold the shelves. But I may just throw out the idea of making it affordable and over engineer the solution with something like 1" square tubing all around to give a more consitent look to it. Or maybe 1" square for the verticals and 1" angle iron to hold the shelves. I'm still thinking.

I think I'm throwing out the idea of standard size shelves I can move and switching to built in custom storage shelves to cover three walls (and ceiling maybe?) of what is becoming the "storage room".

Ok, good to know.

Yeah, I'm with you there.

:)

Yeah, I know about the danger of frames like this warping, but I have no experience actually dealing with it. That's part of what I want to learn on this project! I've seen how much just simple joints distort in a year of taking classes so I can grasp very easily how out of square these things will get when you try to weld them.

If I can sell the wife (and myself really) on getting the welder at this point based on potential costs of a design, then I'm set. I can get the welder, buy an assortment of different sized pieces (I'll need lots of scrap laying around for future projects anyway) and do some experimenting and prototyping to see just how things will hold up for myself before I make the final decision decisions.

Thanks for the advice. It's all very good stuff.

How am I ever going to catch up to all you guys! :)

Once I get the first tank in (and the house doesn't burn down because of it), the wife will get used to the idea and I can grow from there. :)

I do (a small cheap one). And a router table and multiple routers and skill saws. If I make it out of wood, the project should not be a challenge. :) A nice 5 HP cabinet saw is on wish list of stuff to get after I get this basement project done and I've got the new shop area to expand into (if my current metalworking addiction doesn't prevent me from getting back to woodworking). My little cheap table saw (an 8" sears table top unit with legs added) has worked well for years but the accuracy sucks and it's a challenge pushing 4x8 panels through it. I will normally cut down 4x8 size work with a skill saw or something similar using a guide clamped to the work instead of trying to do it with the small table saw. I use my larger and much higher quality Dewalt sliding compound miter saw mostly now. Only when I must rip something long does the little table saw get called into duty.

But, now that I think about it, some nice built in cabinets as part of the rec room would be a fun project once I get to that point - and an excellent excuse to get that cabinet saw. :) Or maybe something cool with wood, steel, and glass.

You won't make anything cheaper yourself. I'm also a DIYer and hate buying something off-the-shelf but those racks are a steal and impossible to beat.

Their Seville line is also top notch and much cheaper than anything else. I have 2 of their rolling boxes and going to buy another 2 this weekend. Big maple top worktable is also a steal. They used to have a real marvell, big

You mentioned some of the same brands others have mentioned. I'll have to check those out. The Gorilla Rack (or something like that) seems to be nearly the same (if not identical) to what HD sells and which I have two of already in the 3x1.5x7 size. They are nice. I use them in my workshop.

Yes, but this research has paid off in talking my wife into letting me buy the welder. Yeah!!! I'm still working on what I will build. The plan of the hour to make built-in custom floor to ceiling shelves starting with one wall of my current workshop. I'm going to build metal frames with wood shelves but the specifics are stilling being worked out. I'm thinking of making the bottom two shelves 4' deep with the rest 2' deep. This will allow the bottom to stick out and be used optionally as workbench area. My son needs workspace as well. He has been building custom action figures and selling them on ebay but he's been doing it all in a very over crowded and small bed room. This will allow him to have a real workshop area as well as creating lots of storage. It also ends up with a custom design which you simply can't buy off the shelf (ha ha). Building it all out of wood instead of steel frames would probably be the cheapest option but not as cool.

I'll have to check those our as well. Someone else mentioned the same units. We are probably going to need even more shelving units for the finished rec-room as well and units like that might work well for some of the stuff we are thinking of in there.

It sucks so much when that happens!

Thanks for the feedback.

If that big storage space is pretty much a rectangle with a level floor and a constant ceiling height, and no pesky columns, there is a solution that meets all your requirements - I.E. provides a good excuse to buy a welder, yet doesn't kill months building every single shelf from scratch...

Have you ever seen the 'Rolling Shelves' or 'Rolling Files' storage systems, where all the shelves are on rollers and tracks on the floor? You need to get to a certain area, you slide the shelves over till the aisle is open - you only need one open aisle space for access.

You make the tracks on the floor out of angle iron and strap stock brackets, and you bolt the bracket tabs to the floor with expansion anchors. The wheels are available from any decent industrial supply, and can come as full casters with the brackets or as loose wheels turning on a rod axle.

And you make the shelving base carts out of heavy wall square tube stock with the V-groove casters welded on, and you bolt down (with welded on bolt tabs) two or three sets of factory-built movable-shelf shelving units to each cart. (Don't weld them down, if they get messed up you want the ability to replace parts.) Bolt them together end to end, so they make a solid unit.

You'll need rubber bumpers for between the base units, and some sort of a brake or cane-bolt stop system so they don't try to roll while you are in the aisle. (That could hurt...)

If the wife is going to try moving them, you might want to provide a small block and tackle for mechanical advantage shifting them back and forth, and convenient rings to anchor each end depending on which direction the shelves need to go. Too much trouble to add the crank-wheel winch to every aisle.

-->--

The Acetylene and Oxygen are the ones you have to worry about - they go behind a secured door so the kids can't play "Bang on the cylinder with a hammer till it deflagrates."

Build a little cage for the bottles on the side-wall of the garage and put chains around them or make a custom egg-crate holder so they can't fall over.

Hint: You want cheap CO2 bottles, buy up old CO2 extinguishers at garage sales. The good ones you get hydro-tested and refilled for use as extinguishers for shop and kitchen, or sell them off to shop buddies.

If you go to a FE shop with their own hydro-test tank (ask around) it's cheaper to rehab a $2 Garage Sale find than buy a new unit. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle!!

The ones that have bad horns, hoses, valves, or missing instruction bands (or for other reasons can't be filled and tagged as an extinguisher any more) get hydro'd, new CGA valves and turned into beverage or welding gas cylinders. I have a nice assortment...

If the cylinder fails hydro you have plasma torch practice material. Save the valves and horns, they may come in handy later.

-->--

Yeah, I know what you are talking about.

Yeah, I've been looking at industrial caster web sites for another project.

Yeah, interesting idea. That would sure create a lot of storage and be a fun project as well. I'll keep it in mind.

How about just flux-core for the less critical work and save the gas completely? I've not yet bought mig or flux-core wire so I don't know what the prices are like. Is Flux-core wire more expensive than mig wire + CO2?

Thanks for the ideas!

I just ordered my new Mig welder!

So what did you order?

HD sells the same Gorilla Racks but Sams' ones have 2 advantages--they are cheaper and they are 7' tall vs HD's that are only 6'...

Yes, there is no other way around if you want something custom. It is not even about price because even if you hire something to do a custom job for big bucks they would never do it properly to your satisfaction. That's why I always do such work myself.

I recommennd those wholeheartely. They are really good. Way better than e.g. Crapsman stuff twice their price.

Yep. I can't excuse my stupidity... Those boxes were SOOOO good...

A miller 180-auto set.

My Dad used to come up with all sorts of nasty metal stuff he wanted me to MIG for him (CO2 mix, .035 wire, Millermatic

Now if you want your welds to pass certification...

I have a Miller Challenger 185A machine, and bought the large Harbor Freight welder cart kit for it - but welded all the upright corners where it was made to be bolted, and made a custom axle that took two

The axle is simple - two 3/4" NC barrel nuts welded to the inside of a chunk of 1" C-channel (instant wheel alignment). Then two small pieces of angle mounted to the bottom pan edges.

The wheels mount into the barrel nuts with the right length 3/4" Grade 2 bolts so the threads stop the correct width of the wheel bearings, and a flat-washer or two to take up that last 1/8" of slop. If you ever have to change wheels and the bearing width is different, just go find two new bolts that fit.

They are darned strong - and you can make smooth shelf inserts for them really easily - get a sheet of 1/4" Masonite hardboard or pegboard, or 1/4" White Melamine faced hardboard. It's simple enough to zap out pieces that are 17-3/4" x 47-3/4" on a table saw and dog-ear the corners an inch for the posts.

I use one for my computer, with a cantilever shelf on the front for the keyboard - but the cantilever shelves have the lip on the top, so you need to make a plank for your keyboard out of a chunk of 1" X 12" whitewood shelf board.

I bought a chunk of 1X12 Oak for the keyboard shelf, but now I just need to radius the edges and sand & stain it to match the cabinets. Round Tuit time...

There are times that full custom works better, but there is no shame at all in taking something mass produced and customizing it for your needs. And it can be finished a lot faster, for a lot less, and look better.

I have to build a conduit rack material cart - I've been saving all the downed light standards from work, and have a few nice 4" square tube heavy wall chunks for the base. They only rust out the bottom six inches...

Or they can turn into gate posts if the need arises first.

If you get it together and properly tacked square, and weld it carefully, it won't warp - much. The tacks will keep it from growing too far.

Slap it together fast without thinking, and all bets are off - you could end up so far off it's now modern art sculpture, start again with fresh materials.

Neat design.

I ordered the small Miller cart for mine but I'll have to see how well it works when it gets here. I might make some mods to it as you did to your's or maybe I'll just decide to creat something different for myself.

I might have to move my machine to the back yard over grass and the idea of using large pneumatic tires and making it balance most the weight on those to make it reasonable to move over ground sounds very intriguing. I haven't seen the Miller cart yet but I'm not expecting it to work over grass when it's loaded with the welder, cables, and gas. I assume it's designed for in-shop movement only.

Two reasons: Fluxcore is a lot messier to work with, spatters a lot more and the flux generates a lot of smoke. Not fun when working indoors or in a confined space (under a car) with no breeze... Gas ends up a lot cleaner.

And you have to reverse the polarity on the torch stinger and ground when changing between fluxcore and gas, and inevitably it will get forgotten one time - and the weld looks like utter crap and fails from no penetration, and you just can't figure out why it's going so horribly wrong...

And then it hits you why. >_> The Acetylene and Oxygen are the ones you have to worry about - they