Now 6010 root (happy 7018 fill)- what rod sizes and types

Hi
Happy having moved to 7018 for most welds.
Should I be looking to 6010 at all? What for? (roots?, corners?)
Here in UK, Bohler "Foxcel" 6010 seems inverter-friendly and seems to
me to do the business (pen. and smooth running). Good choice?
What 6010 rod sizes should I buy and be practicing with?
What should I be practicing in the workshop?
Particularly - when do you "drag" (classic keyholing a V-butt root?)
and when do you have "open arc" - and if open arc, what arc-length
Richard Smith
Reply to
Richard Smith
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Roots will be easier with 6010. It's also more tolerant of dirty metal.
No idea. Over here the pipeline welders will only use Lincoln 5P. Myself I generally just use a 6011.
Depends on what you're welding. 3/32 and 1/8 are more common.
Depends on what you want to do.
For the most part 6010 is a open arc rod. About the diameter of the rod in arc length is close. I do tend to drag my root passes though and generally prefer a shorter arc myself.
Reply to
Wayne Cook
I try for a relatively tight root around 1/16th land and 1/16th opening. As I run my 6010 I am in plan A plan B or plan C mode. Plan A is a nice drag on the joint with some of the arc visible. If the joint closes up my rod gets tighter to the point that it is riding on what is left of the gap almost vertical and the rod slightly bent as I bend it forward along the groove. The arc is happening on the other side and you could almost run without a helmet. Plan C is when I start to see an extra large keyhole. I am about to burn through so I tend to draw back increasing arc length, angle my rod towards the solidifying weld pool and in desperation start weaving an arc to spread the heat into the sides of the joint. There is no plan D. I blow through just as Wayne walks up, takes a look and turns shaking his head in disgust :'))) Randy
Hi
Happy having moved to 7018 for most welds.
Should I be looking to 6010 at all? What for? (roots?, corners?)
Here in UK, Bohler "Foxcel" 6010 seems inverter-friendly and seems to me to do the business (pen. and smooth running). Good choice?
What 6010 rod sizes should I buy and be practicing with?
What should I be practicing in the workshop?
Particularly - when do you "drag" (classic keyholing a V-butt root?) and when do you have "open arc" - and if open arc, what arc-length
Richard Smith
Reply to
R. Zimmerman
LOL. It's obvious you've not been around when I'm trying to play pipe line welder. :-)
While I know a lot of pipeline welders and know some of the procedures I definitely can't call myself a pipe line welder.
Reply to
Wayne Cook
I haven't done a real pipe test since 1984. In a shipyard I did have a lady welder with me when I was fitting. Another welder was doing some practice to qualify. I told her that it would be fun to do the walk by shaking one's head. She did it to this guy. As she walks away he starts screaming "What?? What??" Everyone looks up from their work and the deed was done. She never turned around and he was sucked right in. No one hurt except for an ego bent out of shape. Randy
LOL. It's obvious you've not been around when I'm trying to play pipe line welder. :-)
While I know a lot of pipeline welders and know some of the procedures I definitely can't call myself a pipe line welder.
Reply to
R. Zimmerman
That's a mean trick. :-)
Reply to
Wayne Cook
Well, thanks for those inputs guys. I treasure them all, in the different aspects they illuminate upon the issue.
I'll go get some rods and report back, hopefully in a couple of weeks of so - hopefully with pictures.
Richard S.
Reply to
Richard Smith
Wayne - hi.
Lincoln sent me some 5P's to try and I couldn't find any inverter which would run them - certainly not dragging down a V-butt root. They are a notorious "hard" rod, it seems. A pipewelder would be using a welding generator with the rod running directly coupled across the generator - which has the oommph and the resilience to run these things, apparently.
Recorded here
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Thanks your responses guiding me on my broader range of questions.
Richard Smith
Reply to
Richard Smith
That's why you won't find many a pipeline welders who doesn't have a Lincoln SA machine on the back of his truck.
As for the dragging of the 5P's well that's not the official way of welding with them. A big enough machine can do it (I do with my Miller Dimension 400) but normally a gap is needed for any of the cellulose rods.
No problem. Just keep in mind that my advise is worth what you paid for it. :-)
Reply to
Wayne Cook
Your comments are valued.
I would read with interest if you wanted to tell me more about practice in your part of the world.
With 6011's on an inverter, I've found you can push against the root and that can help keep the weld going if plate thickness and gap go against you. I've tried that for flat and vertical-down V-butt (no-one has shown me how to do pipe). And I know about going along with just a ring of red around the base of the rod as all you can see and mainly going on sound - keeping a sort of gurgling sound going.
I got several students to pass their trade qualification doing the V-butt the only way I know how - which is this - so if you can set me straight I would amend my practice.
Richard Smith
Reply to
Richard Smith
If you're jamming the rod hard on a downhill bead you are flirting, seriously, with internal undercut defects. Ideally you are going to lay the rod in the bevels with light to medium pressure, more of course when the space shuts down but at some point you better either go to a smaller rod or turn up the heat. Or that internal undercut will jump up and bite you. And send you alookin for a new job.
JTMcC.
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Reply to
JTMcC
I'm just relating my experience and what I've heard from the pipeline welders.
That sounds similar to what I know about pipeline welding. I do know that when they get finished with the root pass it stands very proud of the bottom of the vee (a really tall narrow bead). They then do what they call a hot pass where they turn up the heat real high and burn down on each side of the root pass. After that it's either a cover or more fill passes and a cover (depending on thickness of the pipe wall).
Sounds like you're doing great to me. I think the Randy is probably the better one to give the advice on this personally. I'm self taught and I've never been tested in my life (other than the real world testing my welds). What I do have is about 27 years of welding with the last 15 being pretty much professional shop welding. My former employer wanted everything done with 7018 so I've got more time running that than any other rod. But I started with 6011 and a old Marquette cracker box so I've got a fair amount of time running that. I've probably only ran about 15lbs of 5P that I can remember and didn't like it when I did run it (but it was mostly old rod so I can't say for sure). I definitely do things with 7018 that aren't recommended (like running it down hill) but I've got enough experience with it to know what I can get away with strength wise and what I can't. I definitely know there are better welders out there than I am. But I can weld well enough that I rarely have any problems and for the most part my welds look good have proven to be strong enough.
Reply to
Wayne Cook
Ah at last the real pipeline expert comes out.
Reply to
Wayne Cook
I'm not claiming to be an expert. But I am a Journeyman and it's my field.
JTMcC.
Reply to
JTMcC
If you're not welding pipe, you'll have a relative small need to ever run 6010. What type of work do you intend to do? That will tell the tale.
JTMcC.
Reply to
JTMcC
You definitely know the field better than I do.
Reply to
Wayne Cook
Hi JTMcC, everyone
"Next base" is being able at welding I-beams. Hence I've been practicing basics / 7018's.
I actually work as a maths teacher at a technical /
further education college at present - plus increasing involvement railway courses.
So I'm sorted for work at the moment, but keeping my welding hand in and wanting to get involved in some projects.
I do keep my hand in with MIG as well, BTW.
Richard Smith
Reply to
Richard Smith
In structural work, in the U.S. you will very, very rarely see 6010 in use.
JTMcC.
Reply to
JTMcC
Question : I think 7018's for I-beam because
* these strong beams have carbon and alloy content making the HAZ hard and needing the "LoHi" (low hydrogen) aspect of the rods
*
the strength of the beams calls for the higher strength and greater toughness of the 7018 rods for welds to match
Meanwhile
* flat regular surfaces allow the short arc necesssary for 7018
Is this right?
What have I missed?
I have been asked by a friend if I would be willing to weld some I-beams for architectural application...
I was asking about xx10 because *
it can be good to have occasionally * the reluctance to use them here when they are a good choice puts my hackles up
I would expect it would be good to preheat I-beams to at least 60degC (maybe go 100degC, so water droplets fizzle as test) if for some reason xx10's were desirable - such as repairing a cracked dirty and oily in-service beam. True or incorrect?
Thanks again for inputs
Richard Smith
Reply to
Richard Smith
It's pretty doubtfull your beams are anything greater than 50ksi minimum material, so no I don't agree with that.
Same as above. Structural is just easier and faster with 7018, and you are garanteed very good mechanicals if it's used properly. But there isn't much steel used in structural shapes that couldn't be happily welded (and has been) with 6010. 60XX series electrodes are considered a prequalified matching filler for "group 1" materials (in AWS D1.1, the structural welding code most used in the U.S.) which range up to 85ksi tensile, only on that material over 3/4" thickness are they no longer prequalified, you can still use them but have to qualify the procedure with that consumable. Of course 7018 is still easier by far and that's why it's the usual choice.
I don't think I've ever encountered a surface that wouldn't allow the proper use of LoHi rods.
70XX series filler is specefied on many, many structural drawings because it does this type of work easier and with less preheat/postheat/other precautions specially on thick material. Plus it's familiar to those that normally are working in that enviroment. Most large structural is done with flux core and dual shield now, but stick is still used on a lot of smaller welds and some large ones.
Most if not all structural shapes available in the U.S. aren't going to need preheat unless the outside temp is low or the material is thick. I've never understood the dirty/oily/rusty material idea. If it's worth welding, it's worth cleaning and in the last 20 some years I can't really remember very many welds I've made that I wasn't able to clean.
Reply to
JTMcC

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