welding safety - ventilation

I've noticed that every time I do any significant mount of welding, my sinuses object violently.
I also end up with a lot of black stuff in my nose.
This is mainly TIG welding and I trie to avoid placing my face directly over the weld pool and have gentle ventilation wafting through the workshop -- but is this enough?
I"m mainly welding stainless steel so am I slowly killing myself with chromium poisoning or what?
Do I really need to invest in a hood with forced ventilation -- it seems to be a big hassle/expense for maybe just two or three 6-hour welding sessions a month.
-- you can contact me via http://aardvark.co.nz/contact /
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I shudder everytime I hear "harmless" used in conjunction with welding.
Stainless steel - plate and filler metals - contain chromium, manganese and nickel, all of which can be considered dangerous if your total exposure exceeds certain limits.
Please read and understand the MSDS and warnings on the box. Heeded now, they can keep a welder from long-term health problems.
wrote:

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Have you ever read the MSDS for Stainless Steel filler wire? I have. It basically says, do not grind this metal into fine dust and snort it like cocaine.
There are no hazzards from TIG welding stainless steel, other than those posed by the arc process itself.
You are under considerably greater danger when grinding or polishing it. Just wear a respirator.
I am a welding instructor. I HAVE to read the MSDS whether I want to or not.
Caution is one thing, blind panic is another.

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:> I shudder everytime I hear "harmless" used in conjunction with welding. :>
: Have you ever read the MSDS for Stainless Steel filler wire? : I have. : It basically says, do not grind this metal into fine dust and snort it : like cocaine.
: There are no hazzards from TIG welding stainless steel, other than : those posed by the arc process itself.
: You are under considerably greater danger when grinding or polishing it. : Just wear a respirator.
: I am a welding instructor. : I HAVE to read the MSDS whether I want to or not.
: Caution is one thing, blind panic is another.
Amen!
Here is the msds for pure water. What I find most amusing is the part about washing your hands after exposure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 1: Chemical Product and Company Identification Catalog Numbers: 6648, 9150, 9151, 9152, 9153, 9180, 9190, 9192, W112700 Product Identity: WATER, DEIONIZED, ACS Reagent Grade, HPLC, USP/EP Purified, Rinse Solution, including Solutions Plus brands Manufacturer's Name: RICCA CHEMICAL COMPANY Emergency Contact(24 hr) CHEMTREC: 800-424-9300 CAGE Code: 0V553 Address: PO BOX 13090 ARLINGTON, TX 76094 Telephone Number For Information: 817-461-5601 Date Prepared: 10/19/1998 Revision: 5 Last revised: 10/1/2002 Print Date: 7/3/2003
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Section 2. Composition/Information on Ingredients Component CAS Registry# Percent Concentration ACGIH TLV OSHA PEL Water, Deionized 7732-18-5 100 Not Available Not Available
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 3 : Hazard Identification Emergency Overview: Clear, colorless liquid. Non-flammable, non-toxic, non-corrosive. Does not present any significant health hazards. Target Organs: None identified. Eye Contact: Not hazardous by eye contact. Inhalation: Not likely to be hazardous by inhalation. Skin Contact: Not hazardous by skin contact. Ingestion: Large doses may cause stomach upset. Chronic Effects/Carcinogenicity: None IARC - No. NTP - No. OSHA - No. Teratology (Birth Defect) Information: No information found. Reproductive Information: No information found.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Section 4. First Aid Measures In all cases, seek qualified evaluation. Eye Contact: No action necessary to be taken. Inhalation: Not expected to require first aid measures. Skin Contact: No action necessary to be taken. Ingestion: No action necessary to be taken.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 5. Fire Fighting Measures Flash Point: Not Available. Method Used: Not Available. LFL: Not Available. UFL: Not Available. Extinguishing Media: Use any means suitable for extinguishing surrounding fire. Fire & Explosion Hazards: Not considered to be a fire or explosion hazard. Fire Fighting Instructions: Use normal procedures/instructions. Fire Fighting Equipment: Use protective clothing and breathing equipment appropriate for the surrounding fire.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 6. Accidental Release Measures Absorb the liquid with suitable material, then treat as normal refuse. The liquid may be flushed to the sewer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 7. Handling and Storage As with all chemicals, wash hands thoroughly after handling. Avoid contact with eyes and skin. Protect from freezing and physical damage. SAFETY STORAGE CODE: General
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 8. Exposure Control/Personal Protection Engineering Controls: No specific controls are needed. Normal room ventilation is adequate. Respiratory Protection: Normal room ventilation is adequate. Skin Protection: None required. Eye Protection: Safety glasses or goggles.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 9. Physical and Chemical Properties Appearance: Clear, colorless Liquid pH: Not Available. Odor: Odorless Boiling Point(C): Approximately 100 Solubility in Water: Inifinite Melting Point(C): Approximately 0 Specific Gravity: 1.0 Vapor Pressure: Not Applicable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 10. Stability and Reactivity Chemical Stability: Stable under normal conditions of use and storage. Incompatibility: Reacts violently with elemental metals: Sodium, Lithium and Magnesium. Hazardous Decomposition Products: None expected Hazardous Polymerization: Will not occur.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 11. Toxicological Information LD50, Oral, Rat: > 90 mL/kg, details of toxic effects not reported other than lethal dose value.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 12. Ecological Information Ecotoxicological Information: No information found Chemical Fate Information: No information found
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 13. Disposal Considerations Flush to sewer. Always dispose of in accordance with local, state and federal regulations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 14. Transport Information Non-Hazardous
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 15. Regulatory Information (Not meant to be all inclusive - selected regulation represented) OSHA Status: The above items either do not contain any specifically hazardous material or the potentially hazardous material is present in such low concentration that the items do not present any immediate threat to health and safety. These items do not meet the OSHA Hazard Communication Standard (29 CFR 1910.1200) definition of a hazardous material. TSCA Status: All components of this solution are listed on the TSCA Inventory or are mixtures (hydrates) of items listed on the TSCA Inventory. CERCLA Reportable Quantity: Not Reportable. Sara Title III: Section 302 Extremely Hazardous Substances: No. Section 311/312 Hazardous Catagories: No Section 313 Toxic Chemicals: No. RCRA Status: No. California: None reported. Florida: None reported. Pennsylvania: None reported. WHMIS Information (Canada): Not applicable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 16. Other Information NFPA Ratings: Health: 0 Flammability: 0 Reactivity: 0 Special Notice Key: None HMIS Ratings: Health: 0 Flammability: 0 Reactivity: 0 Protective Equipment: B (Protective Eyewear, Gloves)
Rev 1, 9-26-2000: Reformatted from WordPerfect to Microsoft Word; (Section 1) Revised emergency telephone number to CHEMTREC 800-424-9300, added catalog number 9192; (Section 4) revised first aid measures; (Section 7) added storage code; (Section 11) added toxicological data reference. Rev 2, 10-09-2001: Reformatted to electronic data format. Rev 3, 12-26-2001: (Section 1) Revised title; added catalog numbers 9153, 9180, 9190. Rev 4, 03-11-2002: (Section 1) added 'Rinse Solution' to title, added catalog number 6648. Rev 5, 10-01-2002: (Section 1) added Solutions Plus catalog number W112700.
When handled properly by qualified personnel, the product described herein does not present a significant health or safety hazard. Alteration of its characteristics by concentration, evaporation, addition of other substances, or other means may present hazards not specifically addressed herein and which must be evaluated by the user. The information furnished herein is believed to be accurate and represents the best data currently available to us. No warranty, expressed or implied, is made and RICCA CHEMICAL COMPANY assumes no legal responsibility or liability whatsoever resulting from its use.
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On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 00:29:04 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@mdems.umaryland.edu wrote:

So, I can inhale a gallon and be ok? <g>

Uhhhhhhh, see above <g>

Phsycical damage? Sort of like busting up water with a hammer or if you drop it on the floor it shatters?

SCUBA tank would be better.

water solubile water, kewl!

and operating hotplates

Is it legal to throw away water??

Must be sparkling

I was living the dangerous life today, I got a drink of water with no saftey gear on at all! Damned near drowned when I tried to inhale it tho,err.

That was fun! I would like to see the one on toast!<G> Back to business. Happy 4th to all U.S. peoples.
Thor
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"Persona NonGrata wrote: (clip) I would suggest wearing a good respirator if cutting painted things like auto body. May paints contain urethanes and epoxies - i.e. plastic. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Very scary. It sounds like fireman are seriously at risk when fighting fires, especially car fires. Is it routine for them to wear breathing protection? Is the incidence of cancer significantly higher in this profession? That statistic would be a very telling piece of information.
I can't remember ever seeing a fireman wearing breathing protection on TV or in person, except when entering a burning building.
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How about a rug fire - wool is poison! Almost anything gasified is poison at one point or another.
The bad think on rugs and wall hangings - this kills those getting out like you and I - and kills those who break in to save. Remember many of the painting (trees, people...) paint has cadmium based paint. Got rid of lead for cad. Great.
Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer snipped-for-privacy@pacbell.net
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On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 13:14:58 GMT, "Persona NonGrata"

Is there some kind of "critical" temperature involved?
I've been soldering and unsoldering wiring for years and sometimes that involves the insulation melting -- or even giving off smoke if I'm stripping something down.
Maybe this explains the third arm I started growing a few years back? :-)
-- you can contact me via http://aardvark.co.nz/contact /
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Bruce Simpson wrote: (clip) Maybe this explains the third arm I started growing a few years back? ^^^^^^^^^^ I think your body is adapting to the need that often arises while soldering, for a third hand.
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If you are just melting some wires here and there you are probably unaffected. The wire is melting, but not really combusting - unless you're a beginner I guess ;-)
Seriously though, if you look at the EPA regs for foundrys and "sweat furnaces" in particular, there is tremendous concern about dioxin.
Dioxin is formed during incomplete combustion of various plastics, and can be accelerated by various metal contaminants like copper which may be acting as catalysts. You can completely eliminate this hazard by subjecting exhaust gasses to around 1600 F for a period of 2 or 3 seconds. This simple step will allow for the complete combustion of smoke from plastics, and no dioxins will be formed. I would recommend that any backyard foundry guys out there think about it.
Dioxin was the active ingredient in Agent Orange, carcinogen, mutagen, teratogen, extremely low exposure limits, one of the most toxic substances known to man.
It's not a problem for low temp stuff like plastic injection, etc, but if you are igniting and burning plastic then you could be in serious danger. This is definately a problem for firefighters, and possibly welders who cut scrap.
One last tip - initial exposure to dioxin will cause an extreme acne reaction, large pustules have been observed about the size of a quarter or larger, a good reference was an industrial accident which happened in Italy about 40 years ago.
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Yes, I've read them. In fact, I help write them. I am a welding filler metal manufacturer. I know what goes in this stuff, and I see the real consequences of welders who do not heed the warnings we give.
It does NOT say "do not grind this metal into fine dust and snort it like cocaine." It does say that the welder's exposure limit for hexavalent chromium (a known carcinogen) can be reached before the limit for the total welding fume. Nickel and manganese are other problematic elements which are present in SS and need to be considered when evaluating exposure and the need for ventilation or respirators.
The statement "There are no hazzards from TIG welding stainless steel, other than those posed by the arc process itself." is simply untrue. Thanks to Gerald for posting some facts.
I never advocated blind panic. But you have oversimplified of the dangers of welding and it needs to be pointed out.
Caution is indeed a proper response. The original poster asked if he needed to invest in forced ventilation to weld a few 6 hour shifts per month. There is no clear cut answer for that. PROBABLY not, but that depends on many things - is the welding in a poorly-ventilated, contained area? Is he using a self-shielded wire or SMAW (which have not only the chromium, but also good amounts of fluorides)? Does he smoke? Are there other factors which can cause increased internalization of the fume constituents?
Can the welding electrode manufacturers now refer all litigation to you, since you have such stunning evidence of the lack of dangers in welding fume that would surely eliminate the HUNDREDS of lawsuits annually?
Our national economy relies upon welding. The health effects cannot be ignored nor trivialized. If you are teaching welders that "There are no hazzards from TIG welding stainless steel", please reconsider.
wrote:

my
with
MIG
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I may have been wrong about the soldering - looks like it can and does produce dioxins.
This stuff is no joke folks.
http://ehpnet1.niehs.nih.gov/docs/1998/Suppl-2/715-722menzel/abstract.html
Let me just mention that North brand respirators are the finest I've ever used, I get mine from Lab Safety. They can also be found on Ebay - and no I do not work for North.
----------------------------------------------------
Occupational Exposure to Dioxins by Thermal Oxygen Cutting, Welding, and Soldering of Metals Heinrich Michl Menzel,1 Ulrich Bolm-Audorff,2 Erich Turcer,2 Hans Gnter Bienfait,2 Gerd Albracht,2 Dirk Walter,3 Chris Emmel,3 Udo Knecht,3 and Olaf Ppke4
1Zentralstelle fr Arbeitsschutz HLfU, Wiesbaden, Germany; 2Hessisches Ministerium fr Frauen, Arbeit und Sozialordnung, Wiesbaden, Germany; 3Institut und Poliklinik fr Arbeits- und Sozialmedizin, Gieen, Germany; 4ERGO Forschungs-Gesellschaft mbH, Hamburg, Germany
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--


Abstract
This paper focuses on one aspect of occupational dioxin exposure that is
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