How to open a Mosler safe with combination? - Page 2

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Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?
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Thanks. I will definitely consider it.

I am also thinking, what should I do with this safe, in the sense of
bolting it down. How is that properly done. It weighs only about 600
lbs and is in a place with pallet jacks and forklifts. Someone could
just forklift it out of there.

Just to be clear, I am not anticipating storing any high value stuff
in there, but I like to do things the right way, so I want to know how
are safes properly secured.

Now, regarding key: the safe has a key hole in the lock. I do not have
that key, and the safe seems to open and close without the need for
any key. So, what is the purpose of that key? For changing
combination? Is that what you were referring to?

Thanks

i

Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?
Ignoramus32441 wrote:
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The key is to change the combination, and depending on the model it can
be set up to open the safe as well.

As to securing it. Figure out where you want it. Make a template of the
hole pattern in the base. then drill holes and use anchors to secure it
to the floor.

If you were doing new construction you would do a bit more, like install
hardened J bolts in the concrete, install ceramic/steel sleeves over
them. Bolt the safe down and then tack the nuts in place. Then float
concrete in around the base as well. Some do even more like adding
plates below the safe and walling it in with steel/ceramic/steel
composite plates.


--
Steve W.

Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?

Ignoramus32441 wrote:
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When anchoring things to concrete, think Hilti. The wedge type anchors
are good as are the threaded insert type, you can't remove either type,
but you can fill them in or grind them flush if you remove the safe
later. FYI after the Boston tunnel started dropping ceiling slabs and
killing people, they called in Hilti to secure the ceiling panels
properly.

Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?
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    That key keeps you from turning the handle to open it even if
you have the combination.  It is really not as secure as the
combination, fairly easy to pick, but it was a belt and suspenders setup.
Perhaps person "N" had the key and person "P" had the combination, so
both had to be present -- unless the handle was kept unlocked, as was
fairly common, and is the status here.  You need the key to lock it as
well as to unlock it.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

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Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?
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I will use this safe mostly for storing new carbide cutters, stuff
that is worth a pretty penny. Thanks for explaining the purpose of the
key. I think that I do not need it for what I do. I practiced
throughout the day today and I think that I am getting a grip on it.

Despite the flimsy outer shell, this is a very secure Class C
safe with a very strong inner shell.

``C-Rating Steel construction with doors at least one inch thick and
walls at least half an inch thick.''


i

Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?

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    O.K.  The main reason to have a key (or to remove the core of
the lock) is so someone does not pick the lock closed on you.

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    Probably made mostly for protecting documents from fire.
(Especially given the provisions for file cabinet drawers inside.)

    Later safes were rated to protect documents in a fire for a
certain time, to protect contents from "access by manipulation of the
lock" a much shorter time, and from "forcible entry" where it is very
obvious that someone has broken in) for zero man minutes.  This was the
kind of rating on government security file cabinets.  Against forcible
entry, the main purpose that the security file cabinet serves is making
it very quickly obvious when something has been stolen.

    The thickness of the walls is mostly asbestos in concrete, I
believe.  The outer skin of metal, and possibly a similar inner skin is
mostly to keep the concrete/asbestos together.

    However, for your purpose, it should be good enough, except that
it will make it *look* like you have something much more valuable in
there, and encourage someone to bring along a safecracker friend.  There
is something to be said for making things not look too seriously
protected. :-)

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

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Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?
On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:58:05 -0600, Ignoramus32441

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Won't that first burglar be surprised?   <Har!>

--
I have the consolation of having added nothing to my private fortune during
my public service, and of retiring with hands clean as they are empty.
                         -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Count Diodati, 1807

Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?
On Jan 20, 8:00=A0pm, Ignoramus32441 <ignoramus32...@NOSPAM.
32441.invalid> wrote:
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The change key hole is inside the safe on the inner surface
of the lock case...  That is what you need if you want to
change the combination of the lock...

If you are referring to a keyhole in the dial, that is to lock
the dial so that without the key it won't be engaged to
spindle to prevent someone from casually playing
around with it...  It doesn't and won't stop someone
who knows what they are doing as far as safe cracking...

~~ Evan

Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?
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The key hole that I was referring to, is not in the dial, it is in the
handle that opens the lock once the dial is correctly dialed.

I thought that there are very few truly professional criminal
safecrackers left nowadays, unlike, say, in 1920's or some such.
The prosession sort of died out, kind like pike pickpockets are dying
out due to "cashless economy".

Is that right or wrong?

i

Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?
wrote:
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Such a keyhole in the handle is a secondary means of security
when the main lock is secured, it also needs to be open for
the safe to open...  It can also be used as a "day lock" for
securing the safe between uses without having to dial the
combination in each and every time...  Look at how a "day gate"
is used on a bank vault so that the main vault lock does not
have to be operated every time someone needs access to
the vault...

Very very wrong...

Why do you think safe designers keep improving the materials
and mechanics/mechanisms used to secure the contents of
safes...

In the 1920's fun technology like plasma cutters didn't exist
which would cut through an old safe like a knife through
warm butter...  In the olden days safes used to use chemical
warfare like tear gas cylinders and such in the doors to
deter people from drilling or blasting them open...

As far as pickpockets being a dying breed you are sounding
like you are not from anywhere near a big city, pickpockets
still exist and still lift wallets and other things from pockets,
backpacks and purses that are wallet sized like cell phones,
iPods and such...  A wallet in a "cashless society" is often
worth quite a bit more than a wad of cash in the first few
hours after it is stolen yet before the owner can report all
the stolen cards to each bank because basically no one
keeps a list of all that information handy and the person
has to go home to get all the account numbers and call
customer service from the numbers on the account
statements...

Identity theft is something on the order of a $40 Billion
with a B dollar a year "industry" in the United States
alone...

~~ Evan

Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?
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    I believe that this combination lock (based on the photo of the
front panel of the safe -- actually a security file cabinet) is of the
kind where you disassemble it, and change the relation between the hub
and the outer disc (where the notch is to allow opening when all are
lined up).  It also does not have the tumbler in the middle of the
combination dial to switch from dialing mode to the retract the bolt
mode.  So this one would not have a change key, unlike the Sargent &
Greenleaf ones.  (It is a vintage device, FWIW.)

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    No -- the keyhole in question is not in the dial, nor in the
back of the lock (which was not shown in the photos linked in the
original question).  Instead, it is in the center of another section to
the left of the actual combination dial.  This section is what withdraws
the bolts in the door -- when allowed by the combination lock having
been properly dialed.  And the key simply keeps the withdrawal lever
(actually two wings on either side of the keyhole) from turning -- or
totally disconnects it from the bolt withdrawal mechanism.  Without my
hands on the device in question, and considering the one which I had was
left behind in the apartment storage room about 1975, I can't check it. :-)

    But it, like this one, has the door designed to slide back on
tracks into a cavity beside the actual file cabinet, so it is out of the
way during normal daytime access to its contents -- at the cost of the
whole thing being a little wider than the more common Diebold security
file cabinets which were at work before I retired.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

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Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?

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The key locking dial has several functions intended, but this is the
first I have heard of the casual play theory.


the first function is to day lock the safe.  This is used when some
one is in and out of the safe all day long and wants to keep it
locked, but does not want to re-dial the combo each time.


A secondary use is on a drop safe serviced by an armored car company.
The merchant has the combination to the dial on the drop side of the
safe but is not issued the key, so the cash stays secured in the event
of a hold-up.

Roger Shoaf


Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?
It's very wise to get some training first. It's far too easy to mess things
up, and lock yourself out.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
  www.lds.org
.


It isn't that hard to change those IF you needed to (I would since the
original owner knows the current combination)
You need the correct change key and the correct directions. Or just pay
a smith to change it.

Steve W.



Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?
2012 08:42:56 -0600 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking  the following:
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    Keep it in a secure place.

    Just don't store that note _in the safe_.

    Just saying.
--  
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no.  And
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Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?
The note might be a pig Latin note of sorts - written
in reverse to fake out the bad guys but easy for the rightest!

Martin

On 1/20/2012 8:42 AM, Ignoramus32441 wrote:
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Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?

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The "turns" can be a bit misleading.  I have had to deal with dozens of
different flavors of locks over the years, and here is how MOST of them
work:

Start by turning the dial clockwise (R) 3 or 4 times to get everything
engaged internally.  Stop at 63.

Turn the dial counterclockwise past 63 twice and stop at 47.

Turn the dial clockwise past 47 once, and stop at 25.

Turn the dial counterclockwise to 0.

Here's where it can get tricky.  Some locks will just open at this point.  
Some of them you can feel something going on internally as the mechanism
drops into place, and then you can open it.  Wiggling the dial a tiny bit
can encourage this event.  Others, you actually have to backtrack
clockwise a few digits to actuate something internally.

I've had success in contacting the lock manufacturer for instructions,
and alt.locksmithing can certianly set you straight.

Doug White

Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?

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<snip>
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Sorry, I didn't notice you has already crossposted there.

Doug White

Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?
On 1/20/12 5:19 AM, Ignoramus32441 wrote:
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Turn the dial to the right at least three complete revolutions.

Stop at 63.

Turn the dial to the left.  Stop the THIRD time that you get to 47.

Turn the dial to the right.  Stop the SECOND time you get to 25.

Turn the dial to the left.  Stop the FIRST time you get to 0.

Then turn the handle and see if it opens.  If not, continue to the left
and the dial should stop within a short portion of a revolution.  Then
turn the handle to open the safe.

DO NOT CLOSE THE DOOR until you have been able to successfully open it
several times in a row with the door open.


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Re: How to open a Mosler safe with combination?
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    I'm sending this reply just to rec.crafts.metalworking.

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    Well ... the first thing is that the first entry should be "turn
past 63 at least four times and stop on 63", not just "start at 63"
which is what this looks like to me.

    Once that is dialed in, you have to turn the handle located to
the left of it, probably to the right.

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    Hopefully, it is currently locked open, so you can't
accidentally close the door and wind up with it locked.

    But with it open, it should be possible to get to the back of
the lock and reset the combination.  I don't know about one of that age,
but typcially the Mosler ones I re-set at work had multiple rings and
hubs in a particular order in which you set the ring to line up the
number you wanted with an index on the hub prior to reassembling it.
The rings and hubs were plastic on those I worked on, while they may be
something like pot metal with one this vintage.

BTW    It looks as though it once had file cabinet drawers in the
    compartments -- I can still see the guides, and I see that the
    door slides back into a compartment to the right of the file
    cabinet section.

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    I hope that this does it.

    Do you have the key for the handle?  If not, and it is unlocked,
you should be fine, but someone might pick it closed. :-) A locksmith
could make a new key for it -- and change the keying in the process, so
someone else could not get the number off the lock to get one made. :-)

    Good Luck,
        DoN.

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