Li Poly electric vs. glow power, costs?

My apologies to the entire group for jumping in to the middle of th discussion without returning sooner. I've lost my old connection ot th Usenet and haven't used this RCgroups connection before.

Anyway, I'm flying a Shockflyer right now and that was the type o plane I saw at the ETOC. Infact I'm fairly certain I saw John Glezeli (SP?) flying the Superstar version.

Here is a link to the Hobby Lobby web page for the Edge 540 versio that I fly.

As an easy start I'd recommend everything shown on that page except th radio and charger. The only reason I'm not recommending the radio i that I assume you already have one. You'll want a micro RX an antenna. I use the Berg DSP5 with an AZZAR antenna.

Probably the best affordable Lipo charger on the market is th Astroflight 109. See it on this page

don't use that one myself, but mine (Orbit Micro Loader Pro) cos about 2.5 times that one and it's not necessary for these planes.

I noticed many of the items I recommended above are out of stock a Hobby Lobby. That's been the case on and off all summer. These plane are so much fun they're selling faster than they cam make em.....or s I'm told.

One of the cool parts is that while the flying season is getting nea the end these planes can be flown indoors. Which is what I'll be doin this winter.

I hope I've helped.

Cheers,

Wi

-- Mike Wizynajty

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Mike,

You've helped a lot. Thanks. As far as I could determine, to get the Shock Flier into flight would cost about $350 W/O the Tx. This package from Hobby Lobby is complete, right? Or did I miss something?

To be honest, I have not considered this type of flying until I found how simple it could be. The wind velocity beyond a certain point may be a factor if flying can be done outdoors. Is this not so? Please excuse me for so many questions. I have been into electric for only a year. Much to learn.

Wan

Unless you simply enjoy the novelty, the 2 major disadvantages of electric vs IC in 2004 are still;

1. cost

1. performance

The shockflyer WILL fly in the wind, but all those flat foam sides will get it knocked around. I've harriered it straight in from about 100 ft with a good headwind. The only thing to watch out for outdoors is that it will not take off / land from grass. Not at all. It won't roll on grass. After repeatedly ripping off the landing gear on nice gentle approaches I only do (very) high alpha landings on grass. No issues on pavement. It's an investment for brushless, but the performance is great. I still have trouble putting $180 worth of motor/battery/esc in a $40 plane though. (not that I let it stop me)

PCPhill

I am a little curious about your packs.

I built an electric conversion of a Great Planes Tracer 40. I used an AXI

4120-18. The packs are 6s3p with 1500 mAH cells. I ended paying about $240 per pack. Also, I think 3 packs is more realistic.

The performance was amazing. Unfortunately, I flew it about 100 times, then crashed it. :-(

-- Mike Norton

P. S. The pack in the airplane was thoroughly damaged (as was the motor and speed control). However, it never burned or did anything exciting. The pieces are in my fireplace until I get around to disposing of the cells.

Mike, Too bad about your crash. A 100 flights is a lot, so you at least got your money's worth : - )

The packs I mentioned belonged to my friend in Columbus. I will ask but I believe he said his packs for the AXI 4130 are 3S3P, Kokam 2100 mAh. That may be why he paid $180 a pack instead of your $240 for

6S3P. Are yours Kokams?

However, my friend said he gets about 28 min. flights on a full charge and he does three 9 min. flights. With 2 packs, he's tired for the day. If I know him and I knew him well, he'd have more than 3 packs.

Unfortunately I'm leaving town today, will not be back until Sept. 2, can you wait for a more accurate answer?

Wan

When my battery was damaged, I was told the chemistry in it is not harmful to the environment, so I buried it in the backyard. Too bad for ruining the most expensive parts of your plane, the ESP and motor not to leave out the battery.

I am not going to disagree with you on this.

This I will disagree with you......you need to do some reserch in this area.

Mike

Wan,

That's probably about right. One of the other fellas in my club figure about $400, but I don't know exactly what equipment he was looking at.

For flying out doors, I usually fly in a very light breeze. I find tha for normal type flying this is fine. When I pull up into a hover i will drift with the wind just like any plane will. You'll have to ge use to that.

If the wind gets much above 5mph it's really not much fun flying small foam plane. I usually fly in the evening just before dark o early in the morning. Around my house, at these times the wind i usually very low or non existant.

Please ask all the questions you like. Today is Thursday and I'll b out of town until Monday, so I won't be around to answer back for couple of days.

Cheers,

Wi

-- Mike Wizynajty

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Performance. Tell that to Jason Schulman. He just won the Pattern Nat with an electric powered plane.

Cost is an issue with large electric planes only. Of course, larg planes are expensive anyway.... but yes, electric powered ones are a order of magnitude more expensive.

Untill, you've experienced the joy of learning to hover 1' off th ground without the worry of crashing it's easy to be negative abou electric power planes. Try a Shockflyer with an AXI motor and a smal set of Lipos. I gurantee you'll enjoy it.

Wi

-- Mike Wizynajty

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Anytime you crash and ruin a plane it's a bummer. When it's expensive it's more of a bummer. If you built it yourself instead of an ARF i gets even worse.

Two weeks ago I crashed my Bruce Tharpe Delta Vortex. It was my winte project and my Pride and Joy. Not only did I destroy the airframe, bu I ruined up my brand new Saito 1.00 and 4 digital servos. I'm sendin the RX in to see if it's OK. If not, I'm out $760.

Wi

-- Mike Wizynajty

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Hi Mike

Errr....I don't - but that's only as I'm not at all enthusiastic about or generally interested in electric. If my current belief re performance is errant, I'd welcome (sincerely) you pointing me specific example/s which might clearly illustrate that point?

In particular, the area which has to be overcome for me to perceive electric power as a viable technical, if not yet cost effective alternative, is sufficient power to weight ratio to equal the performance of a contemporary 2 metre YS or OS 1.40 powered pattern ship - demonstrated in kind.

From something I caught in another post here, that leap may have recently been made?

URL?

No offense intended by the following, but it's as unwise for you to "guarantee" what I might enjoy as it would be presumptuous for me of you.

If I wanted to hover "1' off the ground", then I'd fly rotary wing. I just don't *enjoy* 3D, indoor, or at this juncture electric. I won't attempt to justify that position, not only because no justification is actually necessary as I'm not degenerating the technical skill required of same, merely that *I* simply don't enjoy flying like that any more than I enjoy flying Depron. It's not a judgmental or to be an inferred of others "you're bad, stupid, inferior if you do" statement. It's just that I don't, and equally I don't cop any nonsense implying an inability to appreciate or a deficiency of mental faculty for simply holding a predilection for alternative disciplines within R/C.

In my view, its unfortunate and disserving to electric (& 3D) that many of electric and 3D's proponents in an youthful enthusiasm born of their own recent discovery fed by a fascination with the techno novelty - perpetually try to shove their own zeal down my throat with a quasi religious fanaticism which is about as welcome as Mormon youth knocking on my door at 5am. :)

Yes. Each pack is 3s, 1500 mAH, and it takes 6 of them

I have about 12 minutes of WOT. I used a timer to notify me when about 2/3 of the charge is used. Since commercial packs like these are not identical, they cannot be matched at both the "full" and "empty" state. I assemble them in the "full" state and use the timer so that they never go "empty". This allows me to series charge them.

Certainly.

Ouch!

It was last winter's project.

Try it, build it, fly it.................. I base performance upon the models design and the proper choice of size prop/pitch ( glow or electric ) , size of power plant ( glow or electric ). Not because it sucks down nitro or mAh. So if you are not enthusiastic or interested in electric what would be the point of giving examples????

Mike

Impressive. It took you three and a half paragraphs to simply say "I' glad you're having fun, but I have no interest in electric planes or 3 flying". If what you written above is you truly how you feel why do yo bother with this thread at all?

Wi

-- Mike Wizynajty

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While I tend to agree with large parts of the first part of your commentary, the last clause in this final long sentence clearly shows that you are stubborn, and close minded.

Not both. You can have performance at a cost, or reduced performance at similar cost.

On smaller models.

The power to weight of a tuned 2 cycle IC engine run at maximum power seems to be around 600-800W/lb of *power train* (weight of engine, muffler/prop.tank.fuel. servo for throtle etc). Best LIPO electrics will approach 500W/lb. (motor/box/prop/batery/ESC etc).

Most 4 strokes are in fact heavier and produce no more than the electrics for a given weight.

So aprt from ultra igh speed plabnes, you can get the performance with similar flight duratin.

Cost in the larger sizes is an issue tho. You have to amortize a battery cost over several planes and/or several gallons of fuel to approach similar running costs in the larger sizes.

Yes. Its doable. I did the numbers on a tuned .36 2 stroke, and it wasn't matcheable by an electric - not at the weight and estimated

1.5bhp. But a 4 stroke - heavier and less powerful - is matcheable.

But a 1.40 engine is going to be pulling the best part of 2 bhp - 1500 watts at the prop - or about 2Kw. That's BIG watts and BIG batteries, and they are not cheap. Altho its fair to say that by gearing and propping you could get similar performance at around the 1-1.5Kw level.

Batteries seem to be coming in at about 3.5watts per dollar (LIPOS) So a

2100 watt pack is going to set you back $400 at least, and a suitable motor and controller about 200 dollars each for a quality product.

The distinct advantages are rock solid and more responsive throttling all the way up the power band, and - if no errors are made in component selection - zero dead sticks and engine failures, and almost zero maintenance costs - no fuel or plugs etc.

Plus low vibration and torque induced vibration menas you can utilise a lighter structure without it shaking to pieces. I've flown a little IC - not so much latterly - and a lot of smaller electrics.

The electrics score in particular areas - small field flying, acrobatic planes, slow aircraft and scale - particularly twins and multis - but for sheer 'beat up the strip' power to weight a tuned 2-stroke is still unbeatable it seems.

But for mdeim speed precsion fling, sailplanes, and all but the biggest scale endeavours, its got a lot to offer as well.

And even traditional ARTF trainers (not parkflyers) are available that will take a modest brushless and do what a .25 sized trainer would be expected to do. With the bonus that engine starting and tuning at the field is almst non existent.

I might do a big IC project one day, but for now electrics are simpler and easier for the places I fly. And the preformance on even cheap motors with LIPO batteries is quite astonishing.