Li Poly electric vs. glow power, costs?



Mike,
You've helped a lot. Thanks. As far as I could determine, to get the Shock Flier into flight would cost about $350 W/O the Tx. This package from Hobby Lobby is complete, right? Or did I miss something?
To be honest, I have not considered this type of flying until I found how simple it could be. The wind velocity beyond a certain point may be a factor if flying can be done outdoors. Is this not so? Please excuse me for so many questions. I have been into electric for only a year. Much to learn.
Wan
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The shockflyer WILL fly in the wind, but all those flat foam sides will get it knocked around. I've harriered it straight in from about 100 ft with a good headwind. The only thing to watch out for outdoors is that it will not take off / land from grass. Not at all. It won't roll on grass. After repeatedly ripping off the landing gear on nice gentle approaches I only do (very) high alpha landings on grass. No issues on pavement. It's an investment for brushless, but the performance is great. I still have trouble putting $180 worth of motor/battery/esc in a $40 plane though. (not that I let it stop me)
PCPhill

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Wan Wrote:

Wan,
That's probably about right. One of the other fellas in my club figure about $400, but I don't know exactly what equipment he was looking at.
For flying out doors, I usually fly in a very light breeze. I find tha for normal type flying this is fine. When I pull up into a hover i will drift with the wind just like any plane will. You'll have to ge use to that.
If the wind gets much above 5mph it's really not much fun flying small foam plane. I usually fly in the evening just before dark o early in the morning. Around my house, at these times the wind i usually very low or non existant.
Please ask all the questions you like. Today is Thursday and I'll b out of town until Monday, so I won't be around to answer back for couple of days.
Cheers,
Wi
-- Mike Wizynajty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Wizynajtys's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?action=getinfo&useridi View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid &465
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You are talking about some larger planes........as I see it Wan if more modlers were interested in larger planes and electric conversions then probably the price would come down. So far the interest is in the 300 to 400 class planes brushed or brushless. Anyway who has it made.......the guy/gal carrying a GWS A10 in one hand and the other hand a medium size slr camera bag holding radio, charger, batteries, tools, ect. walking to the soccer field only 10 min from his house. Or the guy/gal driving a 1/2 to 1 hour to get to his club to fly AXI4130 powered plane????? Answer: Both have it made because it boils down to one thing...........You are going to pay to play and that goes for any hobby..............and as long as you are enjoying it, what does money matter anyway :-)
Mike
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Mike, Exactly what I have been talking about many times. I go to the close by small flying field for my smaller planes and to the club for my larger planes. My field box for Glow used to weigh about 40 lbs. Feld box for electric weigh about only 4 lbs.
I simply turn on a switch and fly, no tweedling with needle valves and no messy clean up. Switch off, remove the battery and go home. But every elelctric flyer know this. We do have it made : )
The down side is I have to recharge my batteries and when I have used 3 - 4 batteries, I need to spend about 3 - 4 hours, because my Triton charger puts out only 2.5 Amp. Looking forward th the Astro 109 that could crank out 8 Amps, though I was told not to exceed the 4.5 Amps of my battery packs when charging. Then it should speed up the charging time.
The up side is, the prices of Li Poly battries will come down as technology advances and competition among suppliers reduce prices as in the case of Kokam. I hope I know what I'm talking about.
Except for the cost now, could anyone expect better?
Wan
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On 16 Aug 2004 22:03:24 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@toast.net (Wan) wrote:

Unless you simply enjoy the novelty, the 2 major disadvantages of electric vs IC in 2004 are still;
1. cost
2. performance
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(Wan) wrote:

I am not going to disagree with you on this.

This I will disagree with you......you need to do some reserch in this area.
Mike
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wrote:

Hi Mike
Errr....I don't - but that's only as I'm not at all enthusiastic about or generally interested in electric. If my current belief re performance is errant, I'd welcome (sincerely) you pointing me specific example/s which might clearly illustrate that point?
In particular, the area which has to be overcome for me to perceive electric power as a viable technical, if not yet cost effective alternative, is sufficient power to weight ratio to equal the performance of a contemporary 2 metre YS or OS 1.40 powered pattern ship - demonstrated in kind.
From something I caught in another post here, that leap may have recently been made?
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Try it, build it, fly it.................. I base performance upon the models design and the proper choice of size prop/pitch ( glow or electric ) , size of power plant ( glow or electric ). Not because it sucks down nitro or mAh. So if you are not enthusiastic or interested in electric what would be the point of giving examples????
Mike
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K wrote:

Yes. Its doable. I did the numbers on a tuned .36 2 stroke, and it wasn't matcheable by an electric - not at the weight and estimated 1.5bhp. But a 4 stroke - heavier and less powerful - is matcheable.
But a 1.40 engine is going to be pulling the best part of 2 bhp - 1500 watts at the prop - or about 2Kw. That's BIG watts and BIG batteries, and they are not cheap. Altho its fair to say that by gearing and propping you could get similar performance at around the 1-1.5Kw level.
Batteries seem to be coming in at about 3.5watts per dollar (LIPOS) So a 2100 watt pack is going to set you back $400 at least, and a suitable motor and controller about 200 dollars each for a quality product.
The distinct advantages are rock solid and more responsive throttling all the way up the power band, and - if no errors are made in component selection - zero dead sticks and engine failures, and almost zero maintenance costs - no fuel or plugs etc.
Plus low vibration and torque induced vibration menas you can utilise a lighter structure without it shaking to pieces. I've flown a little IC - not so much latterly - and a lot of smaller electrics.
The electrics score in particular areas - small field flying, acrobatic planes, slow aircraft and scale - particularly twins and multis - but for sheer 'beat up the strip' power to weight a tuned 2-stroke is still unbeatable it seems.
But for mdeim speed precsion fling, sailplanes, and all but the biggest scale endeavours, its got a lot to offer as well.
And even traditional ARTF trainers (not parkflyers) are available that will take a modest brushless and do what a .25 sized trainer would be expected to do. With the bonus that engine starting and tuning at the field is almst non existent.
I might do a big IC project one day, but for now electrics are simpler and easier for the places I fly. And the preformance on even cheap motors with LIPO batteries is quite astonishing.
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K Wrote:

Performance. Tell that to Jason Schulman. He just won the Pattern Nat with an electric powered plane.
Cost is an issue with large electric planes only. Of course, larg planes are expensive anyway.... but yes, electric powered ones are a order of magnitude more expensive.
Untill, you've experienced the joy of learning to hover 1' off th ground without the worry of crashing it's easy to be negative abou electric power planes. Try a Shockflyer with an AXI motor and a smal set of Lipos. I gurantee you'll enjoy it.
Wi
-- Mike Wizynajty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Wizynajtys's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?action=getinfo&useridi View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid &465
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On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:36:51 -0500, Mike Wizynajtys

URL?
No offense intended by the following, but it's as unwise for you to "guarantee" what I might enjoy as it would be presumptuous for me of you.
If I wanted to hover "1' off the ground", then I'd fly rotary wing. I just don't *enjoy* 3D, indoor, or at this juncture electric. I won't attempt to justify that position, not only because no justification is actually necessary as I'm not degenerating the technical skill required of same, merely that *I* simply don't enjoy flying like that any more than I enjoy flying Depron. It's not a judgmental or to be an inferred of others "you're bad, stupid, inferior if you do" statement. It's just that I don't, and equally I don't cop any nonsense implying an inability to appreciate or a deficiency of mental faculty for simply holding a predilection for alternative disciplines within R/C.
In my view, its unfortunate and disserving to electric (& 3D) that many of electric and 3D's proponents in an youthful enthusiasm born of their own recent discovery fed by a fascination with the techno novelty - perpetually try to shove their own zeal down my throat with a quasi religious fanaticism which is about as welcome as Mormon youth knocking on my door at 5am. :)
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K Wrote:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2015359/anchors_2015359/mpage_1/key_nats/anchor/tm.htm#2015359
Impressive. It took you three and a half paragraphs to simply say "I' glad you're having fun, but I have no interest in electric planes or 3 flying". If what you written above is you truly how you feel why do yo bother with this thread at all?
Wi
-- Mike Wizynajty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Wizynajtys's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?action=getinfo&useridi View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid &465
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While I tend to agree with large parts of the first part of your commentary, the last clause in this final long sentence clearly shows that you are stubborn, and close minded. <g>
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K wrote:

Not both. You can have performance at a cost, or reduced performance at similar cost.
On smaller models.
The power to weight of a tuned 2 cycle IC engine run at maximum power seems to be around 600-800W/lb of *power train* (weight of engine, muffler/prop.tank.fuel. servo for throtle etc). Best LIPO electrics will approach 500W/lb. (motor/box/prop/batery/ESC etc).
Most 4 strokes are in fact heavier and produce no more than the electrics for a given weight.
So aprt from ultra igh speed plabnes, you can get the performance with similar flight duratin.
Cost in the larger sizes is an issue tho. You have to amortize a battery cost over several planes and/or several gallons of fuel to approach similar running costs in the larger sizes.
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I am a little curious about your packs.
I built an electric conversion of a Great Planes Tracer 40. I used an AXI 4120-18. The packs are 6s3p with 1500 mAH cells. I ended paying about $240 per pack. Also, I think 3 packs is more realistic.
The performance was amazing. Unfortunately, I flew it about 100 times, then crashed it. :-(
-- Mike Norton
P. S. The pack in the airplane was thoroughly damaged (as was the motor and speed control). However, it never burned or did anything exciting. The pieces are in my fireplace until I get around to disposing of the cells.

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Mike Norton Wrote:

Anytime you crash and ruin a plane it's a bummer. When it's expensive it's more of a bummer. If you built it yourself instead of an ARF i gets even worse.
Two weeks ago I crashed my Bruce Tharpe Delta Vortex. It was my winte project and my Pride and Joy. Not only did I destroy the airframe, bu I ruined up my brand new Saito 1.00 and 4 digital servos. I'm sendin the RX in to see if it's OK. If not, I'm out $760.
Wi
-- Mike Wizynajty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Wizynajtys's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?action=getinfo&useridi View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid &465
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Ouch!
It was last winter's project.
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