NOTAMS and RC Aircraft

Steve- The same policy has been effected previously. Everthing was grounded during the Olympics for miles around. I suspect it has less to do with assessmemt of R/C models as a credible terrorist threat than it does with fighting a battle over where the line should be drawn, If R/C models are excepted from the no-fly edict, who's next in line to demand an exception? FWIW, Dave Brown has proposed that model flying be allowed only at AMA chartered club sites when the fed imposes such temporary bans. If you belong to an AMA club that may be where you want the line drawn. Be assured that not everyone that flys R/C models will agree with you, though.

Abel

Reply to
Abel Pranger
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Big Brother has issued a NOTAM that, in addition to other forms of aircraft, specifically addresses radio controlled aircraft, in its ban of aircraft in the vicinity of Jacksonville, FL during the super bowl next weekend.

We, as a group, need to be vigilant in Brother's encroachment into our (right) ability to enjoy our hobby of "model aviation". If we're not too careful, we'll allow a federal ruling to lump our aircraft in with those aircraft used for profit and be susceptible to all kind of restricting rules. While the AMA should and will respond when these rules are promulgated for comment, we as individual modelers NEED to submit our comments as well. If we let the other guy do it on our behalf, we loose.

As I understand it, clubs in the Jacksonville area have already been contacted about the NOTAM and the specific reference to RC aircraft. I would like to hear from folks in the Jacksonville area to confirm this and what the feelings are in your area. If possible, it would be nice to know who the federal agrency was if it was not the FAA. I think it might be important to know who our less then friendly federal agency is.

Steve Barnett Arnold, MD

Reply to
SBarn18665

First off, you do NOT have a "RIGHT" to fly model aircraft. You are allowed to do so with restrictions.

Thank Bush and the new Department of Homeland Security for this and MANY other problems we will continue to face.

Reply to
Paul McIntosh

Better YET protest by FLYING. Weather permitting of course. Suddenly for once in 39 years I wished I lived Florida...just so I could do this.

Superbowel? WHO CARES...just a damn football game. Not a real sport anyway. Real men play Rugby, lacrosse(without pads) or just have a good ol' wrestlin' match in the backyard.

I'd suggest you do everything you can to annoy the nanny. I do...and all nanny does is whine and moan about how I don't care. Well, I don't care about the nanny state that the US is becoming.

Reply to
Keith Schiffner

I do have some problems with Big Brother, but the ones to thank are those that flew airliners into the World Trade Center. They changed the rules, I suspect, forever.

-- Mike Norton

Reply to
Mike Norton

"Keith Schiffner" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@vnet-inc.com:

My dear Keith, except for the wrestling match (how barbaric) I acknowledge your English roots whilst Superbowl goes along with Mom, apple pie and Chevrolet in the colonies.

But keeping with the days where Mods and Rockers got along, perhaps the simplist solution I might say is to spend holiday from Jacksonville with another R/C club and follow up one's displeasure in writing with the Parliment.

God save the Queen. - HPT

Reply to
High Plains Thumper

"High Plains Thumper" SNIP

Mom, great! Apple Pie, SMASHING! Chevrolet...when they build something as much raw fun as a mini let me know.

I wish but I haven't the dosh at the moment old boy. Currently everything is still packed in the shed and I'm SCARED to open the boxes...

Bad news old bean, Freddie died.

Reply to
Keith Schiffner

First of all you have to understand two things.

Flying model airplanes is NOT a right! It is a privilege just like driving is. And just like driving, it can be taken away.

Reply to
Chuck Jones

Now why does it not surprise me to see this vomit spew from PM?

Reply to
Chuck Jones

Cite please? If it's for sale and not regulated in some manner I can't be stopped and neither can anyone else. Oh and show your work...you've made a bold statement me bucko and it's yours to prove.

Reply to
Keith Schiffner

Thanks for posting that Marty. The part I cited is what I feel people ought to take into careful consideration. This ADVISORY, not regulation, has been in effect for nearly 25 years now and to the best of my knowledge is the only thing FAA has ever officially promulgated regarding operation of model aircraft. The position of the powers that be at FAA has been and remains (paraphrased, I don't recall the exact quote) "modelers have not caused us any problems and we don't see the need to regulate them." That long-standing position could change dramatically if some hotshot were to demonstrate exercise of his rights in defiance of the NOTAM. I'd pray for 50 kt winds in the JAX area during the Superbowl if I really thought somebody would take that notion seriously.

Abel

Reply to
Abel Pranger

I was reluctant to respond to PM's comment as I didn't want to start a non-RC politically oriented discussion. I also wanted to see if any one else had a less then positive reaction to his comment.

S. Barnett

Reply to
SBarn18665

I wasn't initially impressed, but then I figured "What the H--- he's probably just french."

Reply to
Bob Cowell

| First of all you have to understand two things. | | Flying model airplanes is NOT a right! It is a privilege just like driving | is. And just like driving, it can be taken away.

Interesting that you brought up driving as a privilege.

Courts have made declarations that driving is indeed a right, once a person has received a license, rather than a privilege. (And courts have gone the other way as well. It's a pretty heated issue.)

This page is hardly objective, but it does give some of the history on the issue --

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and for a bit more on the difference between a right and a privilege, these pages are good --

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Even so, the difference between the two is relatively academic (at least in the real world.) Even rights are quite often taken away from people -- because they violated the law, or sometimes just because it's convenient for the local law enforcement (like it would be in this case.)

In any event, if I understand it correctly, it hasn't been really shown that the FAA even has the authority to regulate R/C airplanes, at least not when they don't conflict with the operation of full sized airplanes.

Keith suggested that we go ahead and fly anyways if we're in the affected area. It sounds like a great idea, but the problem is that it only takes one person who's aware of the NOTAM to call the police, and the police will come down and tell you to stop (if they're nice) or just arrest you (if they're not.) Legal or not, if you keep flying after the police tell you to stop, it's likely you'll end up in jail.

Once in jail, you'll probably want to fight it, and to do that will require a lawyer and lots of money. To make matters worse, you may be labeled as a `terrorist' and it may very well make the hobby look bad. (The press won't care that the FAA/government is overstepping it's bounds. They'll just talk about how you ignored the police officer when he told you to stop, how the NOTAM was there to protect us from terrorism, etc.)

So, I wouldn't suggest flying in the affected area (especially if you intend to tell the police that you have the right to do so, no matter what the FAA says) unless you're ready to spend some time in jail and/or court, and have the money to spend fighting the issue. If you do have the time and not the money, you may be able to convince some organization to help you in your act of civil disobedience in order to get the legal situation clarified -- I doubt the AMA would be willing to buck the system like this, but the EFF or ACLU might. If you want to go this route, great!, but I'd suggest talking to the EFF or ACLU first. You might want to talk to the AMA as well, if you're a member, and give them a chance to talk you out of it :)

As for Dave Brown suggesting that flying be only allowed at AMA fields, well, the AMA sanctions clubs, not fields. And even so, that's not likely to make Dave many friends in the non-AMA members RC community, at least not unless they let non-AMA members fly at the AMA fields on those days (which seems very unlikely, but it would be a very nice PR move.)

And no, I'm not a lawyer. But yes, I do give money to the ACLU and EFF :)

| "SBarn18665" wrote in message | news: snipped-for-privacy@mb-m15.aol.com... | > Big Brother has issued a NOTAM that, in addition to other forms of | > aircraft, specifically addresses radio controlled aircraft, in its | > ban of aircraft in the vicinity of Jacksonville, FL during the | > super bowl next weekend.

Reply to
Doug McLaren

As do I, and I would _hope_ that defending somebody's "right" to fly RC airplanes near the SuperBowl would be pretty far down the list of battles to fight. There are a lot more important and fundamental violations of civil rights that need to be addressed.

If you do want to fight that fight, I would suggest that you let both the authorities and press know ahead of time exactly what you're doing and why. Invite them to inspect your plane before takeoff. You want to make sure they they all know before the fact that you're not really a terrorist, but you will be violating anti-terrorism laws as a protest against what you view as "bad" laws. It's a bit too late to start explaining after they declare you an "enemy combatant" and lock you up indefinitely with no access to counsel or the outside world...

Reply to
Grant Edwards

| As do I, and I would _hope_ that defending somebody's "right" | to fly RC airplanes near the SuperBowl would be pretty far down | the list of battles to fight. There are a lot more important | and fundamental violations of civil rights that need to be | addressed.

Agreed, though the prohibitions against R/C flying are just one of many prohibitions, and it could be seen as a good case to make an example of. Maybe.

You'd never know if you don't ask.

| If you do want to fight that fight, I would suggest that you let | both the authorities and press know ahead of time exactly what | you're doing and why. Invite them to inspect your plane before | takeoff. You want to make sure they they all know before the fact | that you're not really a terrorist, but you will be violating | anti-terrorism laws as a protest against what you view as "bad" | laws.

That's probably excellent advice. Though it might also make the police leave you alone -- after all, they don't want to be seen as the bad guys. If you're trying to get the courts to establish that the FAA doesn't have juristiction, it won't do much good if you don't get arrested. But maybe you'd have a good time flying, surrounded by bored reporters.

(Of course, even if it did go all the way to the Supreme Court, and it was ruled that the FAA doesn't have juristiction, that could just mean that Congress immediately passes a law that gives them jurisitiction.)

I'd suggest talking to the ACLU, EFF and/or the AMA before trying any of this -- they'd probably have a better idea of how to go about it than you or I would, even if they weren't willing to directly get involved. Perhaps having a pack of Boy Scouts flying would be better? Perhaps small, cheap park fliers would be better than giant scale turbine powered jets, etc.

(Of course, it's also possible that the FAA _does_ have the authority to limit our flying in any way they see fit, and my understanding is simply wrong. After all, I'm not a lawyer, and I'd suggest talking to one before any sort of protest along these lines.)

| It's a bit too late to start explaining after they declare you an | "enemy combatant" and lock you up indefinitely with no access to | counsel or the outside world...

I would hope that this doesn't happen, but you've got a point ...

Reply to
Doug McLaren

From Dave Brown, August, 2004:

"This may not seem significant, but it could become so. The FAA doesn't give the impression that it wants to regulate model airplanes, but it does have responsibility for all of the navigable airspace in the United States, and we fly in that airspace. The people in the FAA seem to want to ensure we integrate into that airspace without creating a safety problem for its other users."

From the FAA's Advisory Circular 91-57, June 19, 1981:

Subject: MODEL AIRCRAFT OPERATING STANDARDS

  1. PURPOSE. This advisory circular outlines, and encourages voluntary compliance with, safety standards for model aircraft operators.
  2. BACKGROUND. Modelers, generally, are concerned about safety and do exercise good judgement when flying model aircraft. However, model.aircraft can at times pose a hazard to full-scale aircraft in flight and to persons and property on the surface.

Compliance with the following standards will help reduce the potential for that hazard and create a good neighbor environment with affected communities and airspace users.

  1. PURPOSE. This advisory circular outlines, and encourages voluntary compliance with, safety standards for model aircraft operators.
  2. BACKGROUND. Modelers, generally, are concerned about safety and do exercise good judgement when flying model aircraft. However, model aircraft can at times pose a hazard to full-scale aircraft in flight and to persons and property on the surface. Compliance with the following standards will help reduce the potential for that hazard and create a good neighbor environment with affected communities and airspace users.
  3. OPERATING STANDARDS.

a. Select an operating site that is of sufficient distance from populated areas. The selected site should be away from noise sensitive areas such as parks, schools, hospitals, churches, etc.

b. Do not operate model aircraft in the presence of spectators until the aircraft is successfully flight tested and proven airworthy.

c. Do not fly model aircraft higher than 400 feet above the surface. When flying aircraft within 3 miles of an airport, notify the airport operator, or when an air traffic facility is located at the airport, notify the control tower, or flight service station.

d. Give right of way to, and avoid flying in the proximity of, full-scale aircraft. Use observers to help if possible.

e. Do not hesitate to ask for assistance from any airport traffic control tower or flight service station concerning compliance with these standards.

R.J. VAN VUREN Director, Air Traffic Service Initiated by: AAT-220

Here's a shorter link:

Neither our rights nor our privileges are absolute. I suspect that if push comes to shove (and I hope it doesn't), the FAA or another government agency could severely curtail the freedom we have enjoyed in the past.

Marty

Reply to
Martin X. Moleski, SJ

That's why the ACLU, the DA, various Dayton Tennessee city/school officials, and John Scopes all got together beforehand to plan out the arrest and trial of John Scopes. If you can get the likes of Clarence Darrow, William Jennings Bryant, and H. L. Mencken to take part in the show, then you're set.

Make sure you fly something big, colorful, and slow in order to let the TV news guys get some good B-reel footage. :)

Reply to
Grant Edwards

He claims to be an American. Though the only americans I know who talk like that are named Kerry, Kennedy, Boxer and so on. And I have trouble believing they're really american.

But PM claims to be one just the same. Working for Uncle Sam in the UK at one of our air bases. As far as I'm concerned, he can stay there. Even after we pull out!

Reply to
Chuck Jones

Never said anything about being for sale Bucko! But it is a privilege just the same. Don't believe me? Ask your local judge! Assuming you can walk into a court without being arrested!

And if you must, the AMA operates at the pleasure of the US Government. Sure they can't stop everyone just like they can't catch every speeder. But they can sure make it rough on those they do catch!

So go ahead and make your silly statement by violating the NOTAM! I dare you in fact! Let's see how you do with 200,000 irate modelers looking for you for causing the whole thing to be shut down.

Reply to
Chuck Jones

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