Honeywell Experion PKS

We have a long term client who has asked us to help him with an upgrade of his TDC system to Experion PKS. We have not been exposed to
Experion before and we've been upfront with him about that, but we do have experience with his installation, good people that he knows can ramp up quickly, plus he trusts our company to give him good service.
Our problem is that Honeywell has not been at all forthcoming with information about Experion because (as they admit) they want to do the upgrade work themselves and view us as competitors. I have to say that we do not run into this problem very often. Usually the product vendors are just happy to see their products going in and they work with us so that their products get installed correctly and show well in the final system. This is especially true when the owner has already selected a specific integrator that they want to work with. I would normally entertain teaming with Honeywell in order to deliver the best service to our customer - possibly subcontracting a portion of the project or something. But their tactics to date have been a real turn off and I'm not exactly inspired to climb into bed with them.
We're just trying to help out a long time customer here, so now I'm turning to the larger user community. I would appreciate your stories about implementing Experion, pitfalls you have encountered, what you like and dislike about the product, and what you suggest for training up on the product. Any other advice people have about our predicament is also welcome.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
We are currently working on a similar project. Honeywell also is quite involved. I have no complaints with the current team, however I have certainly observed that Honeywell is becoming more and more as describe them below. I have worked with them for thirty years and in the last ten they have been getting steadily worse. My 'pro Honeywell' reputation is beginning to wear thin.
I read in their in-house journal, in the last issue before they stopped sending it to me, that they love alliances with EPCs. To quote from memory, "The last such alliance was very successful. We were able to displace the (scummy) contractor and take over the whole job."
My only consolation is that the wheel will turn again. They are still 'almost complete' an extremely large project in our area. It is called "XY-1" as has experienced massive overruns in both time and budget. It has gotten such a bad reputation that on another recent large, grass roots project we were told, "Remember XY-1". Then we were told to drop Honeywell from the short list. "Our corporate cultures are not compatible," said the client.
One of the reasons you have difficulty getting information is that the product is new and they don't know it very well themselves. So it is at least partly a lie when they say they can do it themselves. We have just got our development system installed at our office and are experiencing a few bugs. It's been a week and they can't load programming to the C200 from the ESVT station. Teething bugs, I suppose. I expect they will get them fixed. Their famous 'always on time' reputation for deliveries is slipping. They have gone to a 'just in time' manufacturing system that is becoming an 'almost in time' delivery system.
Graphics on the PKS are totally different from the old stuff. Honeywell will offer you a free 'shape library'. They will also offer to do all the graphics. There will be a lot of hours at a high rate. The work will be done overseas at a low rate. You will spend as much time creating adequate 'graphics work packages' as you would have spent doing the graphics themselves. When its all over you will find that neither you nor your client will get a copy of the shape library. Only Honeywell can use it. They will then be in a perpetual sole source situation for all future graphics development.
Do I sound bitter? No, not yet, but I am increasingly disappointed. I wonder what will happen to them when their existing base of mandatory, long term customers fades away. I am reluctant to recommend them for a grass-roots project. They try to get business by schmoozing the end users while they insult the EPCs. Wheat they don't seem to understand is that this works only half the time. The other half of the time it is the end user that asks ME what I recommend. The answer has been the same for the last twenty years but now I'm starting to think again.
No sign-off this time. The entire post is forged. But if someone passed this to Honeywell it just might smarten them up.
Now, do I hit 'send' or not?

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I agree that Honeywell doesn't have a total handle on the product line yet, but it is a generally good product. IMO the product line isn't completely coherent and the direction is just shy of being clear as of yet, but Honeywell has done a good job of not leaving its customers in the dust as the Experion technology evolves. I know a lot of Honeywell projects guys and I think the general feeling is that they'd like to get a good handle on product implementation strategy without having to answer tough questions from outside resources other than customers, for better or worse.
It's interesting that you are trying to download C200 configuration from an ESVT. Unless you're on a beta program, the ESVT is "officially" compatible with C200 controllers as of R201.x
Mark.
--

"Walter Driedger" < snipped-for-privacy@driesmithdger.ca> wrote in message
news:mdP%c.362735$gE.72711@pd7tw3no...
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
We are being promised it will all work with R210.
Your comment about "having to answer tough questions from outside resources other than customers" doesn't really address the issue. The problem is that they no longer see the EPCs as their customers. As mentioned in another post, they see them as competitors. I have been a customer of theirs since the first TDC 2000s and I see the shift. You may not know it, but no one can attend one of their courses without a note from their mother, I mean end user. It's not the tough questions they don't want to answer, it's any questions at all that would lead you to becoming competent in their system.
I must add, that the individual people working there are very good but are under continuous management pressure. Over the years the level of cooperation is gradually dropping off.
Walter.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
IMO end users are always the customers. As a user with and end product, I've never considered EPC groups to be customers of automation mfg. - especially not when the vendor works without distributors or EPC partners - as Honeywell ACS works. I think this view really boils down to which side of the fence one is on though, so I acknowledge that from an EPC's perspective, they are left out in the cold.
I probably wasn't clear enough on my point about "the tough questions"... I didn't really want to say it, but I'm not convinced that Honeywell is fully competent in implementing the product themselves, much less helping someone else out. This can be frustrating even for the end user, because it locks us into either using their service or our on in-house. Great choice huh?
On this subject, bear in mind that Honeywell's marketing approach is not to create partner alliances with EPC groups, but to work directly with the end user and try to push their own internal service organization. Time will tell if it is a strategy that will increase or decrease their market share.
As for the original question, I'm not sure any EPC can be fully successful trying to maintain Experion because of the very issues we're talking about here. Still, it is a product with a lot of potential. I've personally seen the C300 hardware architecture and it is a step in the right direction.
I'm interested in knowing how R210 works for you. I didn't know anyone had their hands on it yet.
--
Mark

"Walter Driedger" < snipped-for-privacy@driesmithdger.ca> wrote in message
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

It's very simple. As an EPC, I am the agent of the end user. I represent him in all dealings and ensure he gets value for money. That is why, on our current project, an EPC has been put in charge of Honeywell. I, on the other hand, am 'client' now.
There are some rather cryptic posts following. They deal with a certain project from hell that is giving our entire industry a bad name. It was under H. management. It is extremely unlikely that such a thing will ever happen within a thousand miles of this town again.
Walter.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
XY-1..... LOL!
Sure is making MRC / Albian Sands and ACJV / Scotford Upgrader projects look good.......I hear that the mine site averaged over 180 K BPD last month.....not bad for a new process that's only been in operation less than a year!
Took XY and GCOS almost 30 years to achieve that kind of production.....
--

PuNx

"Beware of the dog....the cat is not trustworthy either."
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I must be hearing from a local boy ;-) You wouldn't be somebody I know?
I understand the black hole is finally starting to undergo Hawking evaporation. I have actually met people who worked on XY-1 and have returned. But not all of them yet! It's still sucking them in.
Walter.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Thanks to all who responded. Based on some of your comments, my client has asked us to conduct a study of alternatives to Experion PKS including DeltaV and OPC/HMI options. I will be monitoring this topic throughout the study so if you have anything to add it would be most appreciated.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.