Constitutionality of light bulb ban questioned - Environmental Protection Agency must be called for a broken bulb

Shell didn't decide that blend. The leftist weenie greenies in your state got legislation passed to force that blend.

I'll bet it's mandated by either state or federal legislation.

I seem to recall a discussion where it was mentioned that there are _22_ different mandated blends in the US.

...Jim Thompson

| You are missing the point. If I buy gas from a Shell station and Shell | has decided to adulterate the fuel with a compound (ethanol) that saves | Shell money and returns less BTU energy content to the consumer. Shell | oil is receiving a direct benefit by immediate increased profit and | later by selling more of the adulterated product so that consumers can | continue on their crippled journey. I don't care what Shell paid for a | barrel of oil on the market, that is not the point. It is a flagrant rip | off, a criminal act that the Florida government is complicit with. If | the public fails to realize this, they are very ignorant, and perhaps | deserve what they get from their government and corporations who run the | government.

So provide some proof that this addition of ethanol reduces the total energy per dollar AND emits the same level of pollution per mile driven.

| Imagine if you went the store to buy a pound of hamburger, but the | butcher decides that to increase his bottom line, he will take away | about 2 ounces of beef and substitutes two ounces of wet sawdust. Would | you be "OK" with that? That is exactly what is happening here in Florida | and elsewhere with the gasoline.

I can imagine a lot of things. I can imagine you are making all this up, too. Show some proof.

Then there are those who are opposed to using tax laws to promote public policy. Taxes distort the marketplace.

As for taxing imports, this silliness was settled in the 18th Century in Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations." Smith proved that everybody benefits when nations do what they do best and freely trade with other nations who also do what they do best.

Regrettably, not everybody keeps up with the latest economic theories.

There are ELEVEN different blends required just in the city of Chicago (and suburbs). As an aside, there's a fifty-five cent per gallon tariff on imported Ethanol from, say, Brazil.

Very likely -- they're different ratings too. A 4' T8 designed for a 40W ballast on 220-240V is rated 36W. Your 4' T8 is 32W IIRC. Likewise all the other T8 tube lengths are differently rated between US and elsewhere.

They're designed for switchstart operation here (known as preheat in the US). Of course, there are electronic ballasts available for many years, but not when they first came out.

In alt.engineering.electrical HeyBub wrote: | snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |>

|> I do like the idea of taxing the incandescent bulbs. But I also like |> the idea of taxing cheap imports. |>

| | Then there are those who are opposed to using tax laws to promote public | policy. Taxes distort the marketplace.

And I am not one of those. The marketplace needs to be distorted in a few places. The market for subprime mortgage origination comes to mind as my first place, if you need an example.

| As for taxing imports, this silliness was settled in the 18th Century in | Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations." Smith proved that everybody benefits | when nations do what they do best and freely trade with other nations who | also do what they do best.

As long as all nations are on a level playing field, this would be so. But it is a fact that most nations outside the USA have governments playing a hand in the economies.

| Regrettably, not everybody keeps up with the latest economic theories.

Regrettably, not everybody is open sighted to what all goes on in the world.

In alt.engineering.electrical Andrew Gabriel wrote: | In article , | James Sweet writes: |> |> |>> |>> T8's were designed in Europe to retrofit into T12 fittings and |>> provide energy savings. That doesn't work with the control gear |>> used on US 120V mains, where I believe you require different |>> control gear for the T8's and T12's of the same length. |> |> |> A UK friend and I have discussed this at length and I've sent him some |> 4' T8 lamps to play with. As I recall, we concluded that US T8 lamps are |> electrically different than the UK lamps. | | Very likely -- they're different ratings too. A 4' T8 designed for | a 40W ballast on 220-240V is rated 36W. Your 4' T8 is 32W IIRC. | Likewise all the other T8 tube lengths are differently rated between | US and elsewhere. | |> They're 230mA and over here they all use electronic ballasts. | | They're designed for switchstart operation here (known as | preheat in the US). Of course, there are electronic ballasts | available for many years, but not when they first came out.

I wonder what it would be like in the USA if we wired our fluorescent lights to 240 volts instead of 120 volts. Virtually all homes have it (or at least

208 volts). Of course we'd need 2-pole switches. But at least it's still only 120 volts shock potential relative to ground.

Its simple; I have a ton of gasoline receipts from the period before and after the Ethanol blend was mandated. I was suspicious after I started noticing the fuel economy drop in my vehicle. I have monitored the gas mileage and done the calculations. Its all very simple. The vehicle is well maintained and I have an OBDII reader attached to the computer to monitor gas economy and vehicle performance. Do your own research, Google for gas mileage and Ethanol fuel and come to your own conclusions. As far as pollution out the tailpipe, that is simple logic. If I have to burn 12 gallons of fuel to go the same mileage as 10 gallons once carried me and 90% of that fuel is gasoline and 10% is ethanol, I have a worsened pollution situation in that I am now dumping byproducts from the 10.8 gallons gasoline plus 1.2 gallons of ethanol.

If you don't beleive me, look up the BTU energy of gasoline and Ethanol. Ethanol has significantly less energy than gasoline.

Try doing a critical evaluation of color balance under a fluorescent some time.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant. Speak softly and carry a loaded .45 Lifetime member; Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Web Site:

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The market for subprime mortgages is being distorted by a bailout (and FannieMay). Without a bailout there would be no distortion. Let 'em sink.

It's impossible for a government to *not* have a hand in economics and silly to think they should (not).

...or their own house.

[snip]

You are right on the problem. Political science is NOT a science! And energy IS conserved.

However the leftist weenies will begin denigrating you because you have questioned the veracity of The Great Gawd Algor ;-)

...Jim Thompson

It would be like it is in most of Europe, choke ballasts with glowbottle starters. A bit more efficient than our autotransformer ballasts, but still less than modern electronic.

I expect CFLs to advance a little more, especially with gains in dimming and maybe some models with CRI in the low-mid 90's rather than 82 (with a compromise in light output).

I expect LEDs to continue their pace of advancement, increment by increment in performance, cost, and new varieties. But as LED technology has been incrementing itself along increment by increment, I expect that to remain the story for the next 10-15 years. LED technology appears to me to only be advancing about half as fast as computer technology, maybe a little slower.

There are also metal halide lamps, another technology that has been advancing somewhat and is still advancing, though not as fast as LEDs are advancing.

As a result, I expect displacement of incandescents to be a slow and incremental process that can take another 10-20 years to *mostly* accomplish. Heck, that process was already underway in the early 1980's, when most low-voltage-powered front panel indicator lights were LEDs, and before the mid 1970's those were at least 99% incandescent.

===============================

One area where LEDs (and to some extent in recent years other technologies) are displacing incandescents is nightlights.

The old traditional model used a 7 watt incandescent, and often a shade because 7 watt incandescents are rather bright for this job, and it takes more effort to make an 120V incandescent of wattage much lower than 7 watts - or at least it used to. Past 15 years or so, 4 watt incandescent nightlight "bulbs" have been common - still bright enough to usually deserve a shade.

Now, there are many LED night lights available. With ineffeciencies of safe voltage dropping at low cost, most current models of 120V LED night lights are not more efficient than incandescents in photometric terms - but they still achieve efficiency gains by having a spectrum more favorable to making use of night vision when the lighting is dim (higher "s/p ratio"), along with being dim enough to not need a shade. Power consumption of these is mostly around 1/3 watt to 1 watt. Better are green and blue models and the Feit Electric white C7 "bulb". Most other LED light models using white LEDs will have light output degrading significantly year-by-year or even a bit faster.

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

Hi Don,

I, for one, would happily trade-off some raw lumens for better colour rendering. Do you know of any products available now or in the near future with CRIs in the low to mid 90s?

Cheers, Paul

as desired) the first stop was our Congressional delegation. It's difficult to convince consumers to buy a product they don't need. It's easier, with the help of a large PAC, to put a ring in the nose of legislators and in some cases compel the consumer to buy the product.

CFLs in some portions of the country have become a joke. Look at the cost of heating oil for next year and the cost of electrical energy. It's more economical to heat with electricity. Turn on all the incandescent lights and save money.

Boden

150 watt incandescent with a diode consumes about 88 watts, give or take a bit. The 2640-2780 lumens decreases to about 800-870 lumens (light output of "standard", "soft white" and even 1500 hour, maybe "double life" 60 watt incandescents).

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

Many of the ones exempt on basis of better color rendering do so with compromise in light output, *unless*: The CRI (color rendering index) is in the low-mid 80's! CRI around/above 90 "pretty much requires" significant to severe compromise in light output. Furthermore, if CRI is in the low-mid 80's the color distortions are often mostly *favorable* (main exception of reds being distorted slightly to orangish). Otherwise, color distortions are mostly to darker/duller for reds and greens, especially reds. The color distortions are less when CRI is around 90 or in the low 90's, but still usually largely in unfavorable directions.

As for F40 with uncompromised light output and color distortions mainly

*not* dulling/darkening - Philips "Ultralume". I think that Sylvania's "Interior Design"/"Designer" is fairly similar. Watch for color temperature rating - these come in more than one, especially Philips "Ultralume"!

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

Pollution increase - maybe not, likely not - ethanol has been added to decrease pollution.

Nitrogen oxide emissions tend to be decreased since dilution by ethanol decreases the combustion temperature.

CO emissions are decreased when fuel is diluted (for leaner burn) in cars not making heavy use of oxygen sensors to adjust fuel/air mix.

But energy/power from a gallon of fuel is much less with ethanol than with undiluted gasoline.

Gasoline - from an old figure in the 1961 edition of the CRC Handbook -

20,750 BTU per pound, 6.152 pounds per gallon - multiplies out to 127,654 BTU/gallon.

Ethanol - 327.6 kcal/mole, 327.6 kcal per 46.07 grams, 1,300.029 BTU/46.07 grams, 1,300.029 BTU/58.368 ml, 22,273 BTU/liter, 84,311 BTU/gallon.

MTBE was another agent to "oxygenate" gasoline (I would say "dilute" with "partially oxidized fuel").

I suspect ethanol addition to gasoline is largely nationwide.

I don't mind biofuels - but the current big Federal program is for specifically ethanol specifically from USA-grown corn. I think that we need to lose the restrictions to ethanol from plant species favored by lobbyists!

I have been hearing good things about ethanol from switchgrass! Also, biofuel is not limited to ethanol despite what is said by lobbyists from the cornbelt and especially the ones for Archer Daniels Midland!

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

In warm color CFL - I know of none.

I was thinking along the lines of making CFL equivalent of Philips TL950/TL930.

There are Ott CFLs with correlated color temp. around 5000 K. However, I find these to be pricier and I perceive hype that I suspect to be for trying to justify a higher price that I feel is excessive. It appears to me that a better basis for selling these would be higher CRI and daylight-like color with less of what I personally feel is hype.

For example, I consider it hype to claim that replicating daylight is best for plants, since plants have low utilization of most of the green portion of the visible spectrum - ever notice the color and spectrum of most plant-growing fluorescents, even more reputable ones (Sylvania)?

These are available at Home Depot. One that I plunked $$ on appears to me to have CRI in the 90-"low 90's" range (along with compromised light output compared to similar CFLs with CRI of 82). If I did not have to pay so much for what I personally feel is hype, I would buy more of these for use where I can use a cool color high-CRI white.

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)