Constitutionality of light bulb ban questioned - Environmental Protection Agency must be called for a broken bulb



I use 6 cfl floods and and 8 regular cfls outside on sensors at -10f last winter, cfls light ok, but the floods are not good for 5 minute on sensors, I use HDs bulbs, if lights are to be left on they are fine, but the colder it gets the longer it takes to get bright, the enclosed floods are the worst, I have the regular cfls unshielded and all survived rain and snow.
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andesants should have limited use in todays world

I've converted two of my Maglites to LEDs. They're 'drop proof' too.
--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11
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metspitzer wrote:

Poe is an idiot. Either the bulbs in question got here through Interstate Commerce or they miracled themselves into existence.
If the former, Congress has unfettered authority to regulate them; if the latter, "Let there be light" takes on a new meaning.
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This thing sounds a lot more like a troll than a real message.
Of course I don't limit how stupid Congress can be, I can't see where there is a constitutional issue. The "facts" provided are weak at best. Frankly I would question any information coming from the same source.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit
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wrote:

Yes, I was left wondering what kind of an idiot this Congressman is too. He's certainly free to object to the law that Congress passed regarding light bulbs and there is certainly some basis to do so. However, to drag constitutionality into it is silly. Congress has actually banned private ownership of gold and eliminated freon in air conditioning, etc. How can it suddenly be that it's unconstitutional?

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Here in Florida, the governor Charlie Crist has crammed Gasahol (10% Ethanol) onto consumers without any rational discussion or consideration of consumers.
Notwithstanding the arguments that ethanol production uses fat more petroleum than it saves. The glaring issue is that the gasahol mix actually reduces fuel efficiency significantly in many if not most vehicles. For example, my vehicle averages 15 MPG with regular unleaded (I will not apologize for not driving a Prius) but now with gasahol it now averages 12.5 MPg. This means that when driving a trip of 150 miles I have to purchase an additional 2 gallons of fuel.
So: 1) I was ripped off at the pump paying full price for an adulturated product. 3.96 gallon X 10 gallons X 10% = $3.96 stolen 2) I was ripped off a second time at the pump needing to buy 2 more gallons of same adulturated product. 3.96 X 2 = $7.92 stolen 3) My vehicle still burned 10 gallons of regular gasoline out the tailpipe into the air. Plus it burned an additional 1.2 gallons of ethanol out the tailpipe into the air.
So I am ripped off $11.88 for what should have been 1/2 tank full. And the earth is further polluted.
Please someone tell me where all this makes any sense? I think this benefits only Archer Daniel Midland and Big Oil.
--
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"The RFI-EMI-GUY"
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On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 16:30:17 -0400, RFI-EMI-GUY
[snip]

I think the large numeric dollar-value of "Big Oil" profits confuses the ordinary guy on the street, and politicians use that to their advantage.
What is "Big Oil's" ROI?
Are they not paying _market_ price for oil?
...Jim Thompson
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| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
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Jim Thompson wrote:

You are missing the point. If I buy gas from a Shell station and Shell has decided to adulterate the fuel with a compound (ethanol) that saves Shell money and returns less BTU energy content to the consumer. Shell oil is receiving a direct benefit by immediate increased profit and later by selling more of the adulterated product so that consumers can continue on their crippled journey. I don't care what Shell paid for a barrel of oil on the market, that is not the point. It is a flagrant rip off, a criminal act that the Florida government is complicit with. If the public fails to realize this, they are very ignorant, and perhaps deserve what they get from their government and corporations who run the government.
Imagine if you went the store to buy a pound of hamburger, but the butcher decides that to increase his bottom line, he will take away about 2 ounces of beef and substitutes two ounces of wet sawdust. Would you be "OK" with that? That is exactly what is happening here in Florida and elsewhere with the gasoline.
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On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:34:32 -0400, RFI-EMI-GUY

Shell didn't decide that blend. The leftist weenie greenies in your state got legislation passed to force that blend.

I'll bet it's mandated by either state or federal legislation.
I seem to recall a discussion where it was mentioned that there are _22_ different mandated blends in the US.
...Jim Thompson
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Jim Thompson wrote:

There are ELEVEN different blends required just in the city of Chicago (and suburbs). As an aside, there's a fifty-five cent per gallon tariff on imported Ethanol from, say, Brazil.
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| You are missing the point. If I buy gas from a Shell station and Shell | has decided to adulterate the fuel with a compound (ethanol) that saves | Shell money and returns less BTU energy content to the consumer. Shell | oil is receiving a direct benefit by immediate increased profit and | later by selling more of the adulterated product so that consumers can | continue on their crippled journey. I don't care what Shell paid for a | barrel of oil on the market, that is not the point. It is a flagrant rip | off, a criminal act that the Florida government is complicit with. If | the public fails to realize this, they are very ignorant, and perhaps | deserve what they get from their government and corporations who run the | government.
So provide some proof that this addition of ethanol reduces the total energy per dollar AND emits the same level of pollution per mile driven.
| Imagine if you went the store to buy a pound of hamburger, but the | butcher decides that to increase his bottom line, he will take away | about 2 ounces of beef and substitutes two ounces of wet sawdust. Would | you be "OK" with that? That is exactly what is happening here in Florida | and elsewhere with the gasoline.
I can imagine a lot of things. I can imagine you are making all this up, too. Show some proof.
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snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Its simple; I have a ton of gasoline receipts from the period before and after the Ethanol blend was mandated. I was suspicious after I started noticing the fuel economy drop in my vehicle. I have monitored the gas mileage and done the calculations. Its all very simple. The vehicle is well maintained and I have an OBDII reader attached to the computer to monitor gas economy and vehicle performance. Do your own research, Google for gas mileage and Ethanol fuel and come to your own conclusions. As far as pollution out the tailpipe, that is simple logic. If I have to burn 12 gallons of fuel to go the same mileage as 10 gallons once carried me and 90% of that fuel is gasoline and 10% is ethanol, I have a worsened pollution situation in that I am now dumping byproducts from the 10.8 gallons gasoline plus 1.2 gallons of ethanol.
If you don't beleive me, look up the BTU energy of gasoline and Ethanol. Ethanol has significantly less energy than gasoline.
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On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 18:34:11 -0400, RFI-EMI-GUY

[snip]
You are right on the problem. Political science is NOT a science! And energy IS conserved.
However the leftist weenies will begin denigrating you because you have questioned the veracity of The Great Gawd Algor ;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
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| snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:
|> |> | You are missing the point. If I buy gas from a Shell station and Shell |> | has decided to adulterate the fuel with a compound (ethanol) that saves |> | Shell money and returns less BTU energy content to the consumer. Shell |> | oil is receiving a direct benefit by immediate increased profit and |> | later by selling more of the adulterated product so that consumers can |> | continue on their crippled journey. I don't care what Shell paid for a |> | barrel of oil on the market, that is not the point. It is a flagrant rip |> | off, a criminal act that the Florida government is complicit with. If |> | the public fails to realize this, they are very ignorant, and perhaps |> | deserve what they get from their government and corporations who run the |> | government. |> |> So provide some proof that this addition of ethanol reduces the total energy |> per dollar AND emits the same level of pollution per mile driven. |> |> |> | Imagine if you went the store to buy a pound of hamburger, but the |> | butcher decides that to increase his bottom line, he will take away |> | about 2 ounces of beef and substitutes two ounces of wet sawdust. Would |> | you be "OK" with that? That is exactly what is happening here in Florida |> | and elsewhere with the gasoline. |> |> I can imagine a lot of things. I can imagine you are making all this up, too. |> Show some proof. |> | | Its simple; I have a ton of gasoline receipts from the period before and | after the Ethanol blend was mandated. I was suspicious after I started | noticing the fuel economy drop in my vehicle. I have monitored the gas | mileage and done the calculations. Its all very simple. The vehicle is | well maintained and I have an OBDII reader attached to the computer to | monitor gas economy and vehicle performance. Do your own research, | Google for gas mileage and Ethanol fuel and come to your own | conclusions. As far as pollution out the tailpipe, that is simple logic. | If I have to burn 12 gallons of fuel to go the same mileage as 10 | gallons once carried me and 90% of that fuel is gasoline and 10% is | ethanol, I have a worsened pollution situation in that I am now dumping | byproducts from the 10.8 gallons gasoline plus 1.2 gallons of ethanol. | | If you don't beleive me, look up the BTU energy of gasoline and Ethanol. | Ethanol has significantly less energy than gasoline.
So basically you are saying that because of the added ethanol, you have to burn 10.8 gallons of gasoline where once before you only needed to burn 10. If that 10.8 gallons does in fact produce the same pollution (maybe it is a different mix and doesn't) per gallon, then, yeah, there is an issue with it.
I already know ethanol has a lower energy per volume or weight. But the big questions are how it affects pollution and foreign oil dependency. If you have to burn 10.8 gallons of gas that is otherwise the same as the 10 gallons burned before, then there is an issue with it.
And that's even before we figure in the cost of producing the ethanol, and the impact on the economy of the higher price for certain food products.
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snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Yes it does not seem to make a lot of sense on a lot of levels.
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Pollution increase - maybe not, likely not - ethanol has been added to decrease pollution.
Nitrogen oxide emissions tend to be decreased since dilution by ethanol decreases the combustion temperature.
CO emissions are decreased when fuel is diluted (for leaner burn) in cars not making heavy use of oxygen sensors to adjust fuel/air mix.
But energy/power from a gallon of fuel is much less with ethanol than with undiluted gasoline.
Gasoline - from an old figure in the 1961 edition of the CRC Handbook - 20,750 BTU per pound, 6.152 pounds per gallon - multiplies out to 127,654 BTU/gallon.
Ethanol - 327.6 kcal/mole, 327.6 kcal per 46.07 grams, 1,300.029 BTU/46.07 grams, 1,300.029 BTU/58.368 ml, 22,273 BTU/liter, 84,311 BTU/gallon.
MTBE was another agent to "oxygenate" gasoline (I would say "dilute" with "partially oxidized fuel").

I suspect ethanol addition to gasoline is largely nationwide.
I don't mind biofuels - but the current big Federal program is for specifically ethanol specifically from USA-grown corn. I think that we need to lose the restrictions to ethanol from plant species favored by lobbyists!
I have been hearing good things about ethanol from switchgrass! Also, biofuel is not limited to ethanol despite what is said by lobbyists from the cornbelt and especially the ones for Archer Daniels Midland!
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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says...

...and therefor engine efficiency.

Concentrating on getting the old smokers off the road will do far more good.

I've seen this in my own car. I get about 10% lower mileage with an alcohol mix than gasoline. ...enough to avoid the brands that use alcohol, even if the others do cost 10% more (they usually don't).

Which, as you pointed out, does nothing for a vehicle with a modern fuel system except reduce mileage and pollute groundwater with a nice carcinogen.

Some areas much more prevalent than others. AIUI, it's unavoidable in some areas.

Lose the subsidies and restrictions (including imported ethanol) altogether. Let the market decide.

...and "I've heard" that the only source worth using is cane. Ethanol is the best answer for the current fleet of cars.
--
Keith

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Don Klipstein wrote:

My vehicle as do many others uses the oxygen sensor in a closed loop to maintain the stoichiometric fuel/air ratio. My understanding is that the ethanol tends to make the system believe it is running to lean and thus compensates by richening the mixture. Whatever the process, this ethanol is causing a lot of extra fuel to be burned by some if not many vehicles and it does not make good fiscal sense. I called my dealer's service manager to ask if he was getting complaints, he said he was getting a lot of complaints and there was no adjustment to the vehicle to compensate.
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Here in Florida, the governor Charlie Crist has crammed Gasohol (10% Ethanol) onto consumers without any rational discussion or consideration of consumers.
Notwithstanding the arguments that ethanol production uses far more petroleum than it saves. The glaring issue is that the gasohol mix actually reduces fuel efficiency significantly in many if not most vehicles. For example, my vehicle averages 15 MPG with regular unleaded (I will not apologize for not driving a Prius) but now with gasohol it now averages 12.5 MPG. This means that when driving a trip of 150 miles I have to purchase an additional 2 gallons of fuel.
So: 1) I was ripped off at the pump paying full price for an adulterated product. 3.96 gallon X 10 gallons X 10% = $3.96 stolen 2) I was ripped off a second time at the pump needing to buy 2 more gallons of same adulterated product. 3.96 X 2 = $7.92 stolen 3) My vehicle still burned 10.8 gallons of regular gasoline out the tailpipe into the air. Plus it burned an additional 1.2 gallons of ethanol out the tailpipe into the air.
So I am ripped off $11.88 for less than 1/2 tank full. And the earth is further polluted.
Please someone tell me where all this makes any sense? I think this benefits only Archer Daniel Midland and Big Oil.
--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"
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RFI-EMI-GUY wrote: ...

That makes no sense. Ethanol has about 80% the energy of gasoline on a per unit volume basis. Hence a gallon of E10 blend has roughly 0.9*100 + 0.1*80 --> 98% of the energy content of a gallon of gasoline.
Hence, for mileage to drop by more than a few per cent is unreasonable--you're quoting numbers as if the entire fuel were ethanol but as if it were only 10%.
If the vehicle actually is requiring much more than that extra 2% on E10, something's wrong w/ the vehicle; perhaps in the emission control system sensors.
--
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