Question on Powersave 1200

I defer the discussion of whether or not the devices have any usefulness to the average consumer (I'm quite sure that they don't),
and instead point out the lack of professionalism of the average "Professional Electrical Contractor" as evidenced in:
http://www.electriciantalk.com/showthread.php?p 67
Since the above posts show clearly that the average electrician will install such devices, probably without clearly informing their customer of their uselessness, it is no wonder that such scams continue to be perpetrated upon the public.
It seems, from my point of view, that the "professionals" a consumer would employ to install such a device (not the engineers to who I am speaking here) are scamming the public just as the sellers are.
So perhaps the real engineers here should be warning those who travel this way in search of more information, that both the sellers and the contractors will be very happy to take your money. Professionals? Phooey!!!
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snipped-for-privacy@tastelessjokes.org says...

The claims you do make are just as silly.

Don't bother. Doing business with a scammer would only encourage you.

How about you show where an energy savings large enough to show up on a utility bill would come from? We talk science here, not scam.

Yep, start moving the goal posts. Why not move them all the way to a group that doesn't know any better?

Hey, it's Sunday. The goal posts are needed where they are!

It occurs to me that you could show, scientifically where your "savings" is coming from. You can't because they don't exist.

Why would anyone believe a scam artist?

No. I didn't take the offer when my brother, and EE, gave me the same offer thirty years ago. It was a scam then and physics, nor apparently scammers, haven't changed one bit since.

I've read it. Appeals to (very little) authority don't trump physics.

Indeed the fate wished on all scammers.

Not soon enough.

How appropriate of a scam artist. Your From: is quite appropriate, as well.
--
Keith

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The claims you do make are just as silly.

Don't bother. Doing business with a scammer would only encourage you.

How about you show where an energy savings large enough to show up on a utility bill would come from? We talk science here, not scam.
---> http://renaissance-pacific.net/KVAR_OMC_Information.pdf I refer you to page 10 - the NASA testing. You, of course, will immediately dismiss this as a fake. You would not think to research the name of the individual who signed the document, discover he still works for NASA, call him (as I did) and discuss the finding. You, after all, know everything there is and therefore could not be convinced by "science"

Yep, start moving the goal posts. Why not move them all the way to a group that doesn't know any better?
---> moving golaposts? if you were as smart as you think you are, you would have noted that a far more effective way to sabatage any such test would be to disconnect the device the next day. sorry, my closed minded friend, but you are blinded by your own prejudice. I refer you to a DOE document http://www1.eere.energy.gov/industry/bestpractices/pdfs/mc60405.pdf
--> and also http://www1.eere.energy.gov/industry/bestpractices/pdfs/power_factor.pdf - note the placement of capacitors to optimize energy usage and draws.
--> us all again just how much science you are using. I never realized that name calling was science.
--> I hear that bread mold might be medicine. souds like a scam to me.> You see - trust works two ways. You are a skeptic. Fine. I might be

Hey, it's Sunday. The goal posts are needed where they are!

It occurs to me that you could show, scientifically where your "savings" is coming from. You can't because they don't exist.

Why would anyone believe a scam artist?

No. I didn't take the offer when my brother, and EE, gave me the same offer thirty years ago. It was a scam then and physics, nor apparently scammers, haven't changed one bit since.

I've read it. Appeals to (very little) authority don't trump physics.

Indeed the fate wished on all scammers.

Not soon enough.
---> unlike you hate filled people, I do not wish the worse for anyone, even people like you.

How appropriate of a scam artist. Your From: is quite appropriate, as well.
--
Keith



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<snipo>
Did you even read that document? It is for an industrial customer who is billed for poor power factor. Also, the caps are placed at the motor control centers, pretty darn close to the motors. Your device is to be placed near the meterbase for a residential customer. That would provide almost NO energy savings. The energy savings from a capacitor (assuming a load with poor displacement power factor) occurs by reducing the current in the wire from the location of the capacitor back to the metering point. There are no savings in the wire from the capacitor to the motor since the current level does not change (other than a very slight change possible due to increased local voltage in some cases).
Why have you not responded to any of my posts regarding real testing?
Charles Perry P.E.
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When I first joined the BBC back in 1970, there were some old Marconi SWB18, 100kW shortwave transmitters at Daventry, which had been installed pre-war.
When they were installed, if you wanted DC, apart from the six phase, steel tank Mercury arc rectifiers (11kV and 12A DC to the push-pull, class C, final RF valves) you used motor-generator sets.
The ones for the valve filaments could produce 20V (pure Tungsten filaments) at up to 2000A. [1] The two levels of grid bias were produced with a smaller set which had one AC motor and a dynamo at each end.
When you turned on the MG sets you also operated an OCB (manually) which connected the PFC capacitor. This capacitor was about 4 feet x 2 feet and 7 feet high.
Power factor correction of inductive loads using capacitors was well known back in the late 30s
Stuart
[1] By the time I arrived the pure Tungsten filament valves had been replaced with valves having Thioriated Tungsten filaments requiring less volts and current
--
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.
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Again you miss the whole point. Caps supply the reactive power to motors so the power system does not. However, to get savings on your bill, the cap has to be as close to the motor as possible. You only get savings in the wire to the cap. downstream of the cap you do not get savings. Very simple. I suggest you get a text book on power systems analysis. You might learn something. You keep avoiding the real questions and throwing smoke screens, like a true charlaton.
Judging from your posts, my dog knows more about power factor correction than you do. I know I do having spent the last 20 years doing research and consulting in power systems analysis.
Charles Perry P.E.
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snipped-for-privacy@tastelessjokes.org says...
<trim your posts!>

You can't even read your own scam. Hell, you can't even get a news client set up properly (even Outhouse Excess takes work to screw up that badly). Or perhaps being the scammer you are, you're intentionally trying to obfuscate. Nah, a *crook* wouldn't do that, would he?

You're not even a half-smart scammer. All I'd have to do to defraud you would be to leave my oven on for the month. I don't need to result to fraud to make you look bad. Science does that rather nicely for me. (BTW, I note that you can't even use a speel cheker).
Yes, I am rather closed minded about fraud. I've never met one I liked. You are no different.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You stupid fraud, residential customers aren't charged for displacement current, even if your scam did something, which it doesn't.

Fraud isn't either. You are a fraud and should be hung by your toes in the public square.

There is some pretty sound science behind "bread mold". The science behind electricity is pretty well known. The science behind your capacitors has also been pretty well known for quite some time. Amazingly, this scam has been around at least thirty years. I suppose there is a new generation of stupid people. Even the Nigerian scam lives, so you may have a shot at the big time in a group that doesn't know any better.
<learn to snip, while you're learning about the Usenet thing>

Hate Frauds? No, not really, I just want you to die an excruciating death. ...as soon as possible. It's the just reward for scammers and spammers, in general.
<do learn to snip, while you learn to set up your newsreader, while you learn some morals. Some engineering knowledge might help too.>
--
Keith

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On 9/14/07 1:51 PM, in article t5OdnaEbQeOMaXfbnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com,

I gave up watching and reading at this point. I did watch the videos at this site, and I do believe they are probably accurate and not intended to deceive. Unfortunately, a patent was issued. There is nothing new about the technology being explained.
First, I noticed that the motor had no mechanical load. Thus, the only power getting fed into the motor was that required to make up the mechanical and electrical losses consumed by a motor when it is running at full speed bun not doing anything. Energy saved for such a motor by turning the motor off. An automobile engine idling does no useful work, but you do not ordinarily let it idle between trips.
The technology displayed is over a hundred years old. It is power factor correction obtained by using capacitors. Induction motors, the most widely used type for ac will have a poor (low) power factor when run unloaded. It is this lagging current that is being corrected by adding a capacitor. The loss goes to heating up the conductors. According to the measurement, the device lowered the consumed energy by 3 parts out of 150 (Count the seconds.) If the motor ran at full load, the current measured in the conductors would be, as a guess, about 10A. That would cause several (maybe ten) times as much power to go into heating the copper (You do use copper, don't you?) conductors than the uncorrected unloaded motor.
Bill
--
The PC conservative does not believe in evolution but likes to see natural
selection proceed. The PC liberal believes in evolution but will do almost
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wrote:

Given what little I know about electricy and electrical mechanical motors, I can't say.
Got a question for you, though. Let us assume that the testimonials are true, that the published electric bills are true and not fabricated. If the only change was the addition of the power reducer units, what would a reasonable conclusion be?

--
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snipped-for-privacy@tastelessjokes.org says...

Yout you insist on selling crap to the unsuspecting? You are a criminal!

The assumption is false, therefor the conclusion is meaningless. The only meaningful conclusion is that you're a crook.
--
Keith

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wrote:

Yout you insist on selling crap to the unsuspecting? You are a criminal!

The assumption is false, therefor the conclusion is meaningless. The only meaningful conclusion is that you're a crook.
--> not that the manufactuer has klew about marketing, proper documentation of references, etc. but on the other hand, you apparently are ot familiar with any of the research done by DOE and others regarding power factors, inductive loads, etc. sorry, but I have been busy reading, checking out references and detemining that this tehnology REALLY DOES work.
--> have there been scams in the past? absolutely. are there scams now? sure seems like those asian devices I see on youtube are scams. but I am also seeing far too many real people and operations saving money.
--> you can continue to rant and claim the folks a NASA are liars, and the folks at Honeywell are liars, and those whose electric bills are displayed at various sources are liars, or that all the evidence is made up. OR you could do a little work, and maybe learn something. not that I think you will, because, after all, you know everything already.
--
Keith



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snipped-for-privacy@tastelessjokes.org says...

<Idiot scammer, learn to use the tools!>

I am quite familiar with PF. ...enough to know this fraud from a million miles away. You've been told *many* times why it doesn't/can't work, yet you insist on continuing your fraud.

*THIS* exact scam, in fact. You certainly are bold in your fraud.

No rant. I'm simply calling you what you are; a FRAUD. I'm not the one who has to do work. I know how PF works. I also know that residential customers aren't charged for displacement current.
--
Keith

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snipped-for-privacy@tastelessjokes.org says...
<everything snipped>

<here too>
I see you know how to send canned responses, fraud.
Perhaps everyone reading this fraud should start reporting him to his ISP as a fraud and Internet abuser. It won't stop him from scamming little old ladies but perhaps it'll get him TOSsed.
--
Keith

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