Heat beyond its design capability damages a motor. Think about that a bit.
Electronic circuit boards? Hahaha. Most DC power supplies are power factor corrected now. Adding your capacitors to the input will NOT reduce the heating. It will move the displacement power factor off of unity, increasing the losses in the power system supplying the equipment.
As for designing tests, I have facilities that can do a much better job testing your device than installing it on someones house and asking them to use less electricity to prove your device works. I can simulate all of the loads for a residential customer in a thermal chamber located inside of another thermal chamber. In this way I don't have to worry about changes in climate from month to month, I control the climate in the outside chamber and then a typical residential hvac system located in this space will run to keep the inside space at a constant temp.
The ones that aren't PF corrected won't be helped by capacitors. Displacement current is hardly the issue with such supplies, or in fact anything in the home.
Will a dumb capacitor help as much as potentially hurt? Leading current is just as bad as lagging. ...not that either matter to the home owner.
The "testing" they present on the website is quite humurous. Basically they compare a month's energy usage with the device to the same month the year prior. The problem is that they make no correction for HDD or CDD (heating degree days and cooling degree days). These two numbers can vary widely from year to year for a given month.
Here are example HDD and CDD numbers for Santa Barbara, CA for a 4 year period: All readings from July year, hdd, cdd
As is obvious from this data, you cannot simply compare energy usage from July in one year with the usage in July of another year. This is why controlled, laboratory experiments are required for these types of devices.
Actually this device appears to be nothing more than a capacitor in a box. It will reduce VAR's drawn from the supply by a motor. It will not reduce the vars drawn by the motor itself and will not reduce heating in the motor. It will, however, reduce line losses incurred on the source side of the device but not "downstream" of it (and the cost of these losses is a small part of the total cost of energy unless one has a very inadequate supply) and tend to hold load voltages a bit higher which helps (again with inadequate supply).
By the way such capacitive compensation has been in use for approximately
100 years. Whether it is economic or not depends on a number of factors-including billing that includes a KVAR charge which is not generally used for residential customers. Also such compensation does nothing for lighting and resistive heating loads.
It is being marketed on the basis of customer ignorance (the "theory" given is dumbed down and the claim that it sends the unused "power" back to the utility is extremely misleading -to put it politely). Mind you, testimonials are always much more glowing than actual lab tests.
The funny thing is if you look at power factor correction on their website, there is one webpage that does a decent job of explaining it and its benefits. It talks about the savings from not carrying the reactive current on the facility wiring and talks of putting the cap as near the load as possible for this reason. Then you look at the residential pages and they install the dang think a foot from the revenue meter! It saves you some losses in a foot of wire! lol.
Don't bother. Doing business with a scammer would only encourage you.
How about you show where an energy savings large enough to show up on a utility bill would come from? We talk science here, not scam.
Yep, start moving the goal posts. Why not move them all the way to a group that doesn't know any better?
Hey, it's Sunday. The goal posts are needed where they are!
It occurs to me that you could show, scientifically where your "savings" is coming from. You can't because they don't exist.
Why would anyone believe a scam artist?
No. I didn't take the offer when my brother, and EE, gave me the same offer thirty years ago. It was a scam then and physics, nor apparently scammers, haven't changed one bit since.
I've read it. Appeals to (very little) authority don't trump physics.
Indeed the fate wished on all scammers.
Not soon enough.
How appropriate of a scam artist. Your From: is quite appropriate, as well.
You claim to be "surprised at the outright dismissals made without more thorough investigation", as you can see above in your last post. The video clearly explains that it somehow only supplies the power the devices in the home need, and that it's all the 'extra' power they don't need which causes heat. This is the same video and company I dismissed, and as you recall, you were "surprised" I dismissed it outright.
In fact, I did do a bit of research, as indicated in my first post. I was unimpressed by the results.
That is a perfectly logical scenario, one that is impossible to argue against.
Oh wait, turns out you didn't offer to pay my electric bill. So for me to 'prove' your device doesn't work, I would have to make higher payments on my power bill for three months. However, I have no financial stake in either your sucess or failure, while you do. Turns out that whole paragraph is fluff and BS, which are scammers' favorate tools of the trade.
Don't claim to know "it all", but I do know bullshit when I smell it, and I know enough about this subject to tell when the bullshit is flowing heavily.
Again, I have no financial interest. I do have an interest in not seeing good folks get taken by scammers. It's called morality.
Also, in this case, trust does NOT work both ways. You are trying to get me to trust you. I, on the other hand, have no interest in getting you to trust me. If you like, call me a liar. It might make you feel better. I have nothing to gain either way.
I expect nobody to take my word as gospel. Folks here are smart enough to decide for themselves what's fact and fiction.
Anybody else can take a gander at the claims of this miracle box saving you money by lowering the power factor. They can also do 10 seconds of research and find that electric companies in the US do NOT charge residential customers extra for power factors. Once they catch you in one lie, they can easily and rightfully assume you are lying about everything else.
I have seen no "demos". That video was a marketing tool, not a scientific study, which is of course the whole point, because a scientific study would show exactly what was in this $300 metal miracle box, which is what, $30 worth of parts?
But hey, I try to be fair, and I'll be fair to you. You were kind enough to post some links, so I'll take a look and we'll see. I'll skip the video link for now.
First link:
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Basically the home page, though it had one bit that approached the mere concept of honesty.
"Savings on energy will vary by location, amount of inductive equipment, line losses, and how your electric company bills you. Talk to a representative or yourauthorized distritutors for more information."
Basically it's a disclaimer and a link to people who can lie or tell the truth to you, but proves nothing either way.
Second link:
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Testimonials. Again, proves nothing either way. Scammers use these to help convince marks, but legit businesses sometimes post them too.
Third link:
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Several links to pages that supposedly explain how electricity works. First page is a highly technical mess that is certain to confuse those potential customers this product is aimed at. The skeptic in my believes this is the goal, while the soft, fuzzy side of me thinks, well, the same thing. Next page is more mellow, explaining how electricity is generated and used, including a bit of history. Next page is a few pictures showing power lines.
The page after that is a tad more interesting, making the claim:
"Here is how we at KVAR save money and energy with the KVAR Energy Controller (KEC)."
"It is installed anywhere power is consumed and the KEC unit sends the extra UNUSED power back to the power company."
Unused power? After all that technical jargon on the first page? Ok, maybe not a lie, but kind of strange.
Last page has to do with system losses, but doesn't explain much beyond vague, mean-nothing numbers attributed to various vaguely described devices.
Fourth link:
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So-called certifications from various parties.
Cleaner and Greener Certified, with a logo that shows a little plug on a green background. Somewhere on the logo appears to be writing, but it is unreadable, as the letters are dark green with a light green background, and quite small. A quick Google search came up with
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which does indeed certify companies who participate in their program. I did NOT see the same logo on their site, and while they list the companies that are certified, KVAR was NOT on the list. The search function did not work on this site.
NASA tested, with a little NASA logo. While this is on the "certifications" page, to my knowledge NASA does not certify anything. If fairness, it says NASA tested. Ok. So? No doubt they've tested a wide assortment of things, from floor wax to deoderant. What was the result of their "test"? Who cares what they test? They've allowed two space shuttles to explode through their own worthlessness. Hardly the trustworthy organization we knew in the
70's.
Underwriters Laboratory tested, with a UL logo. Again, what were the results of the test? They've tested many things, some of which undoubtedly caught on fire, blew up, or otherwise failed their tests in entertaining ways. Well, to my surprise, some of their products are in fact listed on UL's database. The product, of course, is a Power Factor Correction Capacitor, which is exactly what I described in my first post. Also, on the same page the company is listed on is this disclaimer:
"The appearance of a company's name or product in this database does not in itself assure that products so identified have been manufactured under UL's Follow-Up Service. Only those products bearing the UL Mark should be considered to be Listed and covered under UL's Follow-Up Service. Always look for the Mark on the product."
None of the pictures on KVAR's web site clearly showed a UL Mark, but again I'll be fair, more than fair, and give you the benefit of the doubt. For purposes of this thread, I'll agree that these products are UL listed. So? It probably won't kill you, which is pretty much ALL being UL listed means.
The Directive on the Restriction of the Use of Certain Hazardous Substances in Electrical and Electronic Equipment, RoHS for short, with their logo and, real surprise here, an actual link to a PDF document. The surprise I felt was short lived, however, when I clicked on that link and a new page opened up saying "The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable." Sure it is. Every other page works just dandy on the site, but this one somehow doesn't. Ok, again with the fairness, somehow one page of this site got messed up, and it's really RoHS compliant. And? All this means is the goo inside the capacitor won't eat your hand off.
CSA, just the logo which, according to Wikipedia, is often forged. Their web site
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is a pure pain in the ass, and I was unable to check whether or not KVAR was legit or not. Seems this organization is more interested in getting visitors to fill out forms and pay money for seminars than actually doing their job. This, of course, is CSA's failing, so KVAR cannot be blamed, so again, to be fair, we'll just say that, for this thread, KVAR is CSA certified. I can almost make out a CSA logo on the sticker.
I'll take you up on one offer, the one you made regarding the so-called studies you mentioned on your origional post. I'll make it easy on you, I already have them!
Had you read my first post completely, you would have known this.
The so-called Department of Energy report is actually something called the Motor Challenge Information Clearinghouse, a program of the DOE, which since my first post, STILL has a web site that doesn't work, although
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is moving along quite well. Well, just for kicks I went surfing their site, and did indeed find this publication. Still, it doesn't come anywhere close to verifying the wild claims made by you or your partner Powersave, and it is definately NOT an endorsement by the DOE. In fact, before I got to the document, there were numerous disclaimers stating the DOE was NOT responsible for any of the documents found on it's web site. Again, all this document says is that a capacitor is a good idea sometimes. Hmmm..where have I seen that before?
So much for the DOE study.
The Santa Clara University study? Again, it looks like it was slapped together. Two PHD's wrote a document that says, well, a capacitor is a good idea sometimes. Nothing about better tasting coffee, which is a shame really. So, where's the biblio, notes, references, or anything that shows they actually did research into anything? Oh, and what is their connection to Powersave, KVAR, or whomever is making money on these things?
Studies from NASA and Honeywell? Again, having NASA as a reference is probably won't go down in history as Marketing's Greatest Idea. Honeywell? I'm not thrilled by what they did to King-Bendix, but I can't say anything against them. It would be interesting to read their report, as long as it doesn't say, well, you know, Capacitors Are A Good Idea Sometimes.
Now, if these studies are so all-fired important, so much so that they are likely to change my mind completely and make me come crawling to you begging for forgiveness, they why AREN'T they on your site? Slap those suckers on your site, let folks here know you did so, and I'll stop whatever I'm doing (unless it's having sex), fire up a smoke, and read them start to finish.
Something tells me this isn't going to happen. If these studies were that profound, they would be on your site already. Folks generally like to put their best foot forward before asking for hundreds of dollars of someone else's money, and anything that offers even the slightest evidence your product works would be slathered all over the site.
So, what does all this mean? It means nothing you say can, so far, be proven. Unless there's some serious gold in the NASA or Honeywell studies, there's nothing to indicate folks would be saving any money at any time. This of course doesn't mean a residential consumer's electrical bill can't go down some if, say, they run large fans, pool pumps, A/C, or air compressors all day and night. I doubt it would come down to a point where this thing pays for itself in any reasonable time, unless, well, you know, you acknowledged it was just a capacitor, and charged a fair market value for it, the metal box, and a little wire.
I did notice there's nothing on the Company page. It's "Coming this week". Well, that gives you time to make something up. Really, most folks can summarize their company, employer, or themselves in just a few minutes.
Media Gallery? Coming soon. Sure it is. With an installation video and instructions.
You know, I was going to give you one compliment. You were to be praised for not expecting laymen consumers to crack open their breaker box and fiddle around with things they don't understand, but can easily KILL THEM. Oh well, with a capacitor that can, according to your warranty, last five years (probably much longer), who cares about repeat business?
This means you are also a Fuck Bag.
Don't bother trying to say this is for electricians. I think your stupid, not a completely brain dead moron. Any halfway non-worthless electrician knows what this is, what it does, how to install it, and how foolish the customer is for buying it.
I almost thought you weren't a lowlife. That's really the highest compliment I can pay you.
You haven't? Check out the 'demo' at
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which I linked to in my first post that you supposedly read. It's all right there, cooler running TV's, better tasting coffee, the works!
Please refer to my first post.
Actually, try the following link for a real device for power factor correction.
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$file/productsa2zFrameset.htm No, I don't expect you to pay my electric bill, show a real demonstration, or otherwise make a legit attempt to prove anything. I fully expect you to throw out some half-hearted replies, call me a "d*****ad", then crawl back into your hole until some sucker comes along.
So will some folks foolish enough to think your not a lowlife.
Don't bother. Doing business with a scammer would only encourage you.
How about you show where an energy savings large enough to show up on a utility bill would come from? We talk science here, not scam.
--->
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refer you to page 10 - the NASA testing. You, of course, will immediately dismiss this as a fake. You would not think to research the name of the individual who signed the document, discover he still works for NASA, call him (as I did) and discuss the finding. You, after all, know everything there is and therefore could not be convinced by "science"
Yep, start moving the goal posts. Why not move them all the way to a group that doesn't know any better?
---> moving golaposts? if you were as smart as you think you are, you would have noted that a far more effective way to sabatage any such test would be to disconnect the device the next day. sorry, my closed minded friend, but you are blinded by your own prejudice. I refer you to a DOE document
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--> and also
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- note the placement of capacitors to optimize energy usage and draws.
--> us all again just how much science you are using. I never realized that name calling was science.
--> I hear that bread mold might be medicine. souds like a scam to me.
Hey, it's Sunday. The goal posts are needed where they are!
It occurs to me that you could show, scientifically where your "savings" is coming from. You can't because they don't exist.
Why would anyone believe a scam artist?
No. I didn't take the offer when my brother, and EE, gave me the same offer thirty years ago. It was a scam then and physics, nor apparently scammers, haven't changed one bit since.
I've read it. Appeals to (very little) authority don't trump physics.
Indeed the fate wished on all scammers.
Not soon enough.
---> unlike you hate filled people, I do not wish the worse for anyone, even people like you.
How appropriate of a scam artist. Your From: is quite appropriate, as well.
Yout you insist on selling crap to the unsuspecting? You are a criminal!
The assumption is false, therefor the conclusion is meaningless. The only meaningful conclusion is that you're a crook.
--> not that the manufactuer has klew about marketing, proper documentation of references, etc. but on the other hand, you apparently are ot familiar with any of the research done by DOE and others regarding power factors, inductive loads, etc. sorry, but I have been busy reading, checking out references and detemining that this tehnology REALLY DOES work.
--> have there been scams in the past? absolutely. are there scams now? sure seems like those asian devices I see on youtube are scams. but I am also seeing far too many real people and operations saving money.
--> you can continue to rant and claim the folks a NASA are liars, and the folks at Honeywell are liars, and those whose electric bills are displayed at various sources are liars, or that all the evidence is made up. OR you could do a little work, and maybe learn something. not that I think you will, because, after all, you know everything already.
Did you even read that document? It is for an industrial customer who is billed for poor power factor. Also, the caps are placed at the motor control centers, pretty darn close to the motors. Your device is to be placed near the meterbase for a residential customer. That would provide almost NO energy savings. The energy savings from a capacitor (assuming a load with poor displacement power factor) occurs by reducing the current in the wire from the location of the capacitor back to the metering point. There are no savings in the wire from the capacitor to the motor since the current level does not change (other than a very slight change possible due to increased local voltage in some cases).
Why have you not responded to any of my posts regarding real testing?
You can't even read your own scam. Hell, you can't even get a news client set up properly (even Outhouse Excess takes work to screw up that badly). Or perhaps being the scammer you are, you're intentionally trying to obfuscate. Nah, a *crook* wouldn't do that, would he?
You're not even a half-smart scammer. All I'd have to do to defraud you would be to leave my oven on for the month. I don't need to result to fraud to make you look bad. Science does that rather nicely for me. (BTW, I note that you can't even use a speel cheker).
Yes, I am rather closed minded about fraud. I've never met one I liked. You are no different.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You stupid fraud, residential customers aren't charged for displacement current, even if your scam did something, which it doesn't.
Fraud isn't either. You are a fraud and should be hung by your toes in the public square.
There is some pretty sound science behind "bread mold". The science behind electricity is pretty well known. The science behind your capacitors has also been pretty well known for quite some time. Amazingly, this scam has been around at least thirty years. I suppose there is a new generation of stupid people. Even the Nigerian scam lives, so you may have a shot at the big time in a group that doesn't know any better.
I am quite familiar with PF. ...enough to know this fraud from a million miles away. You've been told *many* times why it doesn't/can't work, yet you insist on continuing your fraud.
*THIS* exact scam, in fact. You certainly are bold in your fraud.
No rant. I'm simply calling you what you are; a FRAUD. I'm not the one who has to do work. I know how PF works. I also know that residential customers aren't charged for displacement current.
I defer the discussion of whether or not the devices have any usefulness to the average consumer (I'm quite sure that they don't), and instead point out the lack of professionalism of the average "Professional Electrical Contractor" as evidenced in:
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Since the above posts show clearly that the average electrician will install such devices, probably without clearly informing their customer of their uselessness, it is no wonder that such scams continue to be perpetrated upon the public.
It seems, from my point of view, that the "professionals" a consumer would employ to install such a device (not the engineers to who I am speaking here) are scamming the public just as the sellers are.
So perhaps the real engineers here should be warning those who travel this way in search of more information, that both the sellers and the contractors will be very happy to take your money. Professionals? Phooey!!!
When I first joined the BBC back in 1970, there were some old Marconi SWB18, 100kW shortwave transmitters at Daventry, which had been installed pre-war.
When they were installed, if you wanted DC, apart from the six phase, steel tank Mercury arc rectifiers (11kV and 12A DC to the push-pull, class C, final RF valves) you used motor-generator sets.
The ones for the valve filaments could produce 20V (pure Tungsten filaments) at up to 2000A. [1] The two levels of grid bias were produced with a smaller set which had one AC motor and a dynamo at each end.
When you turned on the MG sets you also operated an OCB (manually) which connected the PFC capacitor. This capacitor was about 4 feet x 2 feet and
7 feet high.
Power factor correction of inductive loads using capacitors was well known back in the late 30s
Stuart
[1] By the time I arrived the pure Tungsten filament valves had been replaced with valves having Thioriated Tungsten filaments requiring less volts and current
Again you miss the whole point. Caps supply the reactive power to motors so the power system does not. However, to get savings on your bill, the cap has to be as close to the motor as possible. You only get savings in the wire to the cap. downstream of the cap you do not get savings. Very simple. I suggest you get a text book on power systems analysis. You might learn something. You keep avoiding the real questions and throwing smoke screens, like a true charlaton.
Judging from your posts, my dog knows more about power factor correction than you do. I know I do having spent the last 20 years doing research and consulting in power systems analysis.
I see you know how to send canned responses, fraud.
Perhaps everyone reading this fraud should start reporting him to his ISP as a fraud and Internet abuser. It won't stop him from scamming little old ladies but perhaps it'll get him TOSsed.
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