setting up a website

Those are tough questions to answer based on that little bit of info, but here's a little food for thought.

An IT consultant is going to be expensive.

It depends on what you want to do with the site and what features you want on it. If you're ignorant of using web site tools, server side tools, forms, etc., you have a long and sometimes steep learning curve in front of you. Especially if you want to be sure it's secure from scammers and scrapers and misuse by others.

If you do it yourself, you'll save a lot of money but probably spend a lot more time on site design. But then it'll be exactly as you want it, and making changes won't cost you anything other t han your time.

MS Word is NOT a good idea for web site: It's HTML abilities aren't really aimed at doing web sites; they're more for the intranet and business solutions internal to their networks. Word 97 isn't too bad for doing web sites, but is a little limited. Newer versions past Word97 create incredibly bloated code AND include a LOT of personal information you don't want on a web page! Unless you know what you're doing you should not use Word to do a web site; that's not its design intent.

Front Page is decent for doing web sites, but still bloats/includes personal info on you. NVU is a free, newbie-targetted albeit slightly buggy HTML design program that I like. It's at nvu.com.

NetObjects Fusion and Dreamweaver are two full featured web site design tools. Both include the functions you need to upload/download complete web sites. I prefer Fusion over Dreamweaver, but ... ymmv.

For dedicated purposes of upload/download (publishing) web site files, two freebies are ws_ftp and FileZilla. ws-ftp is easier to use but FileZilla is more full featured. And costs go up from there.

I use: Fusion 7, Note Tab Light, Notepad and FileZilla for my web sites. Fusion does the majority of the work, the others are only used for special things that Fusion can't do or I don't like how it does it, and want to write the code manually from scratch.

If you're a newbie, I recommend the open-sourced NVU and its web forums for learning and getting started.

But, there are a LOT of other good programs around, free and otherwise. You can see a Fusion built web site here:

. Another is at

To learn about free and paid servers to use, check out netfirms.com. Many other places are also good; I just liked Netfirms; had one of their free accounts for a long time.

Luck

Pop

I have experience of Access database building so understand forms, buttons, scroll boxes etc. I've built a couple of Access databases although it was some time ago, refreshing shouldn't be a problem. Am I on the right lines here?

With security I am not au fait.

To what do you refer when you note scammers and scapers?

I take on board what you say regrding Word and I have Front PAge although I never used it yet, I'll invest some time in it.

And I'll look at NVU with an eye on using that if it's security features are better.

I am a newbie to web site design, and my knowledge of code is still basic (I haven't really programmed since the Commodore 64!!!), although I learnt how to build macros in Access. I recently downloaded MSN's VB 2005 Express.

Thanks for the starter, I'm sure it'll be a great help

Billy H

if you want a cheap simple website you can go to godaddy.com or ipage.com and get a package for $10 or $20 a month that includes software, web hosting, DNS registration and the whole bit. They provide templates of pages you just fill in like any form. they include email forwarding so you can get mail addressed to snipped-for-privacy@joe.com forwarded to snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com or whatever.

This kind of hosting lets you upload photos and text without any special software. you don't really need to learn anything new. this might be a way to get started and you can expand later.

When you start writing HTML you can upload that and bypass their webpage creation software. and I agree there are lots better free and low cost web authoring packages than using MS Word.

if you want to see what one of these cheap websites look like you can go to my wife's jewelry store at jewelrybysimone.com we haven't had time to do much with it but it will give you an idea of what you can get for $10 a month or so.

-bob

I was hoping to use my present ISP as host for the domain, is it possible I can switch ISPs and retain the domain? Is it really relevant which ISP with when I have my own domain?

That's quite tidy!!

See GoDaddy.com

you own your domain name and you can take it anywhere you want. my name is registered with godaddy.com for 6.95 a year and i can host my site from anywhere i want...

all we had to do was upload pix and text using the simple software they provide. ipage.com does the rest and they were the cheapest i could find.

When you learn to do HTML you can bypass their software, and if you need more than the standard gig or so of space you can just pay extra.

-bob

: > Front Page is decent for doing web sites, but still : > bloats/includes personal info on you. : > NVU is a free, newbie-targetted albeit slightly buggy HTML design : > program that I like. It's at nvu.com. : >

: : I take on board what you say regrding Word and I have Front PAge although I : never used it yet, I'll invest some time in it. ==> Before you spend too much time on it, write some simple web pages and look thru the code the MS programs generate: I think you'll be amused; or maybe the word is amazed . And at your stage, avoid Frames and XML like they were the plague! : : And I'll look at NVU with an eye on using that if it's security features are : better. ==> Its security features are many magnitudes better because it doesn't put any personal information into your files, period. A

1k NVU file might be near 20k in Word, not sure about Front Page, but still big. MS makes you carry a LOT of overhead with every page you write. And, it's very hard to remove without breaking the code. I would highly recommend NVU if your'e looking for a freebie, now I know a little about your position. : : > NetObjects Fusion and Dreamweaver are two full featured web site : > design tools. Both include the functions you need to : > upload/download complete web sites. I prefer Fusion over : > Dreamweaver, but ... ymmv. : >

: > For dedicated purposes of upload/download (publishing) web site : > files, two freebies are ws_ftp and FileZilla. ws-ftp is easier : > to use but FileZilla is more full featured. And costs go up from : > there. : >

: > I use: : > Fusion 7, Note Tab Light, Notepad and FileZilla for my web sites. : > Fusion does the majority of the work, the others are only used : > for special things that Fusion can't do or I don't like how it : > does it, and want to write the code manually from scratch. : >

: > If you're a newbie, I recommend the open-sourced NVU and its web : > forums for learning and getting started. : : I am a newbie to web site design, and my knowledge of code is still basic (I : haven't really programmed since the Commodore 64!!!), although I learnt how : to build macros in Access. I recently downloaded MSN's VB 2005 Express. ==> In my opinion, others may disagree, Fusion is about the most functional and useful out there nowadays and gives you good bang for the buck. It isn't cheap though, so that works against it, but you wouldn't be sorry you bought it if you used it at all. It's an excellent WYSIWYG editor. From what I know of Dreamweaver, it might be a step above Fusion, but was a lot more expensive too the time I looked into it. I think the current Fusion rev is 8, but Fusion 7 is excellent, and would cost a lot less. NONE of these places seem to have much in the way of support that's any good. NVU has good forums for the most part, or used to anyway. I haven't visited there in a long time.

Best of luck & enjoy!

Pop

: >

: > Luck : >

: > Pop : >

: : : Thanks for the starter, I'm sure it'll be a great help : : Billy H : :

: : See GoDaddy.com : :

In my opinion, GoDaddy is a good place to stay away from. It is and has for a long time been a huge spammer haven and they just don't care. People there keep ending up on blocklists all over North America.

No offense intended; just my opinion/experience/observation.

Pop

Billy, The most cost effective way to go with your own web is to use OSS. Your work plan has to be like that:

1. setup a Linux or BSD server in your place
2. Setup appachi
3. Follow by open source you selected to build a web site. With time you may want to expand your web site functionality or completly to redesign one. Because you have easy access to the server you can do what you want. If you are not too familiar with the OSS, I expect a learning curve for about 2-3 months. Good luck, Alex

-- he wanted to start with is current ISPs site. Which is reasonable.

-- And "learning windows" won't leave him with an "insecured mess"; that makes no sense in this context. He already has a base in windows and it makes sense to go from there. Security comes from proper use of the server, and most of those are Unix while some are Windows servers. It doesn't make much difference what the site owner or server owner use; the interfaces are compatible and a good site will be as secure as the people running the servers make it and support it for.

-- The real -secret- if that's what you want to call it is what the code is written with; and that should not be MS products because they are NOT meant to do web sites! It's very unfortunate they haven't made that very clear.

So, I'd be interested in what "insecurities" you're alluding to; I'm never too old to learn .

Pop

i have two names registered with them and have not had that problem. and at 6.95 a year for a .com it is pretty cheap. i have the usual filters set up and i get less than 1 spam a day..... others may have had other experience of course.

-bob

You are referring to people with web sites hosted by their ISP (or other commercial provider), right? If so, I agree.

The issue of running your own server is an entirely different matter. You can get into trouble (security-wise) running either Linux or Windows. Even if somebody doesn't crack your Linux/Apache site, set just one configuration entry wrong and others can use your server as a relay for various nefarious purposes (spam, for example).

With Windows, its a little worse, in that Microsoft carefully controls publicity about exploits against its products. You and I only hear about the big exploits which hit the news. But I've been on the Unix side of a corporate network when the entire NT/Windows 2K environment collapsed and the Windows admins can't talk about it due to NDA agreements.

I created electrician.com about 8 years ago and have created about

8,000 web pages. I use a combination of software. For raw editing - UltraEdit is the best, but notepad is ok. For web pages use FrontPage 2003. Be sure an anchor your illustrations in absolute mode with the anchor button. DO NOT use Microsoft Word to create web pages. It creates a monster that cannot be raw editied in code. If you are short on cash Netscape's composer that comes with Netscape for free (look under the windows menu) is ok. For fast illustrations and a really nice format I use PowerPoint. It builds great web pages with all your illustrations and uses the same illustration tools available in Frontpage. The PowerPoint pages are also readily viewed in the IE browser in full screen mode permitting a ready built online slide presentation. Take a look at my NEC code change courses at electrician.com. For Webmenu I use Webmenu. For graphics design that I can't do in FrontPage or PowerPoint I use PaintShop Pro and Adobe Illustrator. Many times I perform minor editing of pages in the view mode when using my FTP CUTE for uploading using notepad. For Internet multimedia I use Windows Movie Maker - and I have and have tried just about all of them including Adobe Premier. To get people to your site you have to have something they need and use. For civil engineering I would create and allow the free use of many calculators written in JavaScript. JavaScript is a powerful programming language with many objects such as scroll windows, check boxes, radio buttons, and popups already built in. It allows you to concentrate on the gut program and not have to waste time building the common objects. One more thing, Compatibility. Netscape, FireFox, Opera - Forget them. 98 per cent of the users use IE 5.0 or better according to my stat program webstat. You can spend hours and weeks trying to stay compatible. Forget it. IE displays advanced features of the Windows platform and is the only way to go. PowerPoint pages will not display correctly in Netscape. You will also need time to learn all this - I would say at least 500 hours. I have probably spent at least 10,000 hours in his field and stayed up all night many times. It is convenient to have an almost insane drive and a very tolerable wife to do this work.

: > On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:36:58 GMT, "Pop"

: > wrote: : >

... : >

: > Millions of people have web sites who also have limited or no knowlege : > of servers (other then FTP) or Linux, etc. : : You are referring to people with web sites hosted by their ISP (or other : commercial provider), right? If so, I agree. ==> Yup, which appears to be what the OP is planning out. : : The issue of running your own server is an entirely different matter. : You can get into trouble (security-wise) running either Linux or : Windows. Even if somebody doesn't crack your Linux/Apache site, set just : one configuration entry wrong and others can use your server as a relay : for various nefarious purposes (spam, for example). ==> A little OT to the original quest, but yes, definitely. If you own the actual equipment and are serving instead of being served, it's completely different. But, just to keep it clear for the OP, this wouldn't be his situation, I'm almost sure. : : With Windows, its a little worse, in that Microsoft carefully controls : publicity about exploits against its products. You and I only hear about : the big exploits which hit the news. But I've been on the Unix side of a : corporate network when the entire NT/Windows 2K environment collapsed : and the Windows admins can't talk about it due to NDA agreements.

==> Yeah, Windows is by far the most numerous of systems out there and thus provides/d the most opportunities. Unfortunately, it's "not just for windows" anymore. Unix flavors are beginning to be clobbered by the port mongers and scanners now and the success rate is fairly high in some areas. Unix et al are great for the techincally oriented, but so many newbies have jumped to it, that it's opening up a lot of holes for exploits. My son in Ct mentioned just yesterday that he's got a scanner somewhere that found a port and has been hitting him with passwords for over 70 hours at the time he wrote, I forget how many per hour. He's running Linux, but the real problem is, he has a permanent IP and he can't get it to assign him a new one. The onslaught is coming from only four differnt machines though, so he's slowly getting each one located. They're not going to get thru since he's on a router, but ... he's going to enjoy trashing the bejeepers out of them. It's an interesting world "out there".

To the OP: Almost all of the above is OT to your post, so no worry about any of this "discussion" for you. This often happens when people just feel like talking.

Pop

: : : -- : Paul Hovnanian mailto: snipped-for-privacy@Hovnanian.com : ------------------------------------------------------------------ : Bloody typical, they've gone back to metric without telling us.

uMM, no offense meant, but your advice to use PP, FP et al is off base. On top of that, you've gone way beyond the OP's questions in techinicality that, from the sound of his post, he can understand. That's not very helpful.

FYI, I just created a 3-line, single page, PP html file. It has as a title, "PowerPoint Title" and under that "Subtitle". I added one note to it that says "This is PowerPoint." That's it, nothing else. It occupies 39.6k of disk space. And is full of bloat. Try to "clean" that code, and you'll break the page display unless you know exactly what your'e doing.

Using NVU, the same exact screen display requires 2k of disk space. Hand coding it, I used 1.4k of disk space, less than a cluster size, to create the same exact screen. Guess what the difference is between PP's output and the others? Yup: you're right. Check the source code I pasted to the end of this email and you can see for yourself. PP writes a LOT of code that's just not needed for a web page: Because, like Word, it's NOT intended to write web pages. ALL the MS software is targetted the same way.

Other things you said that I have an issue with: IE only. YOUR empirical results aren't EVERYone's empirical results. Allowing code to be "broken" for Netscape is really bad design. About the ONLY problem Netscape will have is maybe some of the centering commands won't work, unless you're getting too fancy with your layouts. Then you say to use Compoer (Netscape), but only design for IE? Huh? Composer is OK for a complete newbie, and a good learning tool, but it quickly becomes very limited in what it can do. It's just not a good authoring tool. NVU would be much better, in fact, and even with its bugs runs circles around Composer, plus can handle SS well. If you're really only designing for IE and ignoring Netscape, then guess WHY your empirical data is showing only IE users?

You seem to think it's hard to stay compatible. It is not. It's actually pretty easy if you just learn a few things you need to know and are readily available to you in any search engine. It's also no bif deal to have IE, Netscape and a FireFox or two sitting around for verification purposes, too, if you really want first hand knowledge and aren't too lazy to go after it. But, you've spent so many thousands of hours at coding, you surely must know all that, don't You? Don't you?

A lot of the other stuff you said just sounds like you're parroting a tutorial you found somewhere.

Sorry - posts like that go a long ways to get ; nowhere.

Pop

-------- source code -------------

PowerPoint Title

.CB {color:black;} .CT {color:black;}

PowerPoint Title This is a sub title
 

----------- end source code ----------------

[snip]

Therein lies the problem. Machines that are easy to set up by the uninformed are easy to hack. Linux came up from the Unix camp and many of the old time users know their way around the /etc files. Not always true for newer users (I see the occasional post from 'root' on some system).

Have him look up 'iptables' and 'netfilter'. Just turn off access for suspect IP addresses and they'll think the system was turned off.

Yep. Its what you have to worry about if you want to run your own system. Posting a web site on a hosting site is trivial by comparison.

Hey, I am just giving some advice from my learning file. I look for maximum output for time spent. PowerPoint is a mean machine. When you have to turn out 330 illustrations in 330 pages for an immediate market, you don't have a lot of time to question whether or not people like Microsoft or Unix or lunix or Macs. PowerPoint works fine for me. As far as file size, you sound like you are back in the early 90's. Your file size comparisons don't mean a lot when users are on DSL and stroage is so inexpensive. I should have added the gentleman needs to learn HTML and CSS. He also needs a good ISP. I have found Powweb to be the best. They use a Unix system and offer 12 gigabytes of storage and 10 gigabytes of daily data transfer at $7.77 a month. There tech support is excellent and their control panel is one of the best. You can set up your own email accounts, etc. They also allow you to run Perl scripts from anywhere in your site. I have used 4 other ISP's and used 9 ISP's for connections. I tried Powweb for almost a year before I would trust them, because I could not believe their prices. But they are real and are the best for me. As far as hackers - the best way to avoid them is to not post in newsgroups. You probably will not see anymore of my posts for another year or so.

... : : Have him look up 'iptables' and 'netfilter'. Just turn off access for : suspect IP addresses and they'll think the system was turned off. : > It's an interesting world "out there". ...

I asked him why he didn't do that; he said he's "redirected" something, blah blah blah and he lost me real quick ! I think he's more interested in tracking back to the actual machines through the forgeries et al than in stopping them. He's (notice my tongue in my cheek now!) a Unix "snob" like a lot of them are, and anyone who would do THAT to his precious baby (his system) deserves to be unearthed. I know more than the regular guy on the street about the 'net and computers, but he's a computer sciences grad and works in some pretty interesting stuff. You know how the last stage is supposed to be "Dad knows some good stuff after all?" Well, he's progressed past that to the reality of what Dad knows right now! At 32 he STILL goes to work to play all day instead of working; and to think I paid for most of that education! If you think I'm proud of him, you're right. He sees no difference between a redundant jet engine control program and writing an app to tell him it's time to go home, where I still struggle to figure out what the "anykey" does and keep going "D'oh!"

Pop